4 ms·

Also bonus: https://mises.org/library/stateless-somalia-and-loving-it https://mises.org/library/stateless-somalia-and-loving-it Parody libertarians should reme

Also bonus: https://mises.org/library/stateless-somalia-and-loving-it https://mises.org/library/stateless-somalia-and-loving-it Parody libertarians should remember that the "violence" of taxation prevents actual violence of the blood in the (unpaved) streets kind.

johnisgood 7y ago
I will keep that in mind when I refuse to pay my taxes and have them throw me in a metal cage, or shoot me were I to resist. If this is not actual violence to you, I am not sure what is. Maybe not resisting in this case would prevent another (but not all) "actual violence", too, completely ignoring the fact that it does not have to actually come to it in the first place. I am never going to understand people who propose that violence is a necessary evil in all cases to prevent further violence. Maybe the US needs to do more of that effective bombing of countries. Think smart: no humans to stick around to be violent! We successfully prevented violence!
- maxdamantus 7y ago
  I'd rather have violence in the form of imprisonment due to tax avoidance than violence in the form of children being forced to work or starve due to being born into poverty. I wonder which one of us is being melodramatic here.
  - johnisgood 7y ago
    Are you implying that if it were not for taxation, we would have children being forced to work or starve due to being born into poverty? How come?
    - maxdamantus 7y ago
      Because there would be no safety net. There would be no guarantee of access to education. I'm not necessarily saying that "taxation" is the best way to provide these things, but the .. ideas .. proposed by the website you linked certainly aren't. From what I read, it basically said things like: "government isn't doing a good job, therefore we should get rid of it" and calls for (direct quote) "government to get out of the way of the productive and ever-inventive energies of the public as expressed in voluntary market activity". Maybe we should stop prosecuting people for murder, since it's obviously not stopping it from happening. Maybe we should just allow the market to play betting games over subprime mortgages as it sees fit. Maybe we should just allow banks to launder money for drug cartels and terrorists as long as they're making a profit off it. Am I getting close to the unregulated dream?
      - zeropnc 7y ago
        Example of a country who’s people are dying on the streets because of a lack of taxation?
        maxdamantus 7y ago
        I don't know if you're aware of this, but child labour is something that exists today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour#21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour#21st_century Additionally, here's a list of currently 37 countries that rely on taxation from wealthier countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavily_indebted_poor_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavily_indebted_poor_countrie...
        zeropnc 7y ago
        ...how is that an answer to my question?
        johnisgood 7y ago
        Yeah, somehow child labor = children are dying. It is ridiculous. Most of the time they are better off working, and not just to gain experience, but to bring money or food home and so on. Heck, when I was a kid, most kids I knew worked and was better off doing that. They were not dying, they are not dead. What gives then? His link even mentions this: > Contrary to popular belief, most child labourers are employed by their parents rather than in manufacturing or formal economy. > Preventing children from participating in productive work would be more harmful to their welfare and that of their group in the long run Child labor is not inherently wrong, and no one says the kids should have to work in harsh conditions just like the adults. Child labor != children dying. It is not an answer to your question, he just has absolutely no clue what he is talking about. It is yet another instance of "think about the children" gone wrong. I mean, yeah dude, working at retail or assembling whatever is killing our children! Absurd. Edit: I am against forced labor when it comes to both children AND adults.
        7y ago
  - acct1771 7y ago
    Instead, we've seemingly gone the opposite extreme, and kids barely understand how to exist outside and amongst their peers, let alone do an hour of hard work.
- llukas 7y ago
  You want to be a citizen AND do not pay taxes? You cannot really get one without another. This is two way street. Renounce citizenship and nobody would care about your taxes. If you do not want to then you as free willed entity chosen that being citizen paying taxes bring you more benefit than not being one.
  - johnisgood 7y ago
    > Renouncing U.S. citizenship doesn't free you from U.S. tax obligations and means that even after the renunciation, the IRS could still audit and assess taxes and penalties. Nice try.

johnisgood 7y ago

I will keep that in mind when I refuse to pay my taxes and have them throw me in a metal cage, or shoot me were I to resist. If this is not actual violence to you, I am not sure what is. Maybe not resisting in this case would prevent another (but not all) "actual violence", too, completely ignoring the fact that it does not have to actually come to it in the first place. I am never going to understand people who propose that violence is a necessary evil in all cases to prevent further violence. Maybe the US needs to do more of that effective bombing of countries. Think smart: no humans to stick around to be violent! We successfully prevented violence!

maxdamantus 7y ago
I'd rather have violence in the form of imprisonment due to tax avoidance than violence in the form of children being forced to work or starve due to being born into poverty. I wonder which one of us is being melodramatic here.
- johnisgood 7y ago
  Are you implying that if it were not for taxation, we would have children being forced to work or starve due to being born into poverty? How come?
  - maxdamantus 7y ago
    Because there would be no safety net. There would be no guarantee of access to education. I'm not necessarily saying that "taxation" is the best way to provide these things, but the .. ideas .. proposed by the website you linked certainly aren't. From what I read, it basically said things like: "government isn't doing a good job, therefore we should get rid of it" and calls for (direct quote) "government to get out of the way of the productive and ever-inventive energies of the public as expressed in voluntary market activity". Maybe we should stop prosecuting people for murder, since it's obviously not stopping it from happening. Maybe we should just allow the market to play betting games over subprime mortgages as it sees fit. Maybe we should just allow banks to launder money for drug cartels and terrorists as long as they're making a profit off it. Am I getting close to the unregulated dream?
    - zeropnc 7y ago
      Example of a country who’s people are dying on the streets because of a lack of taxation?
      - maxdamantus 7y ago
        I don't know if you're aware of this, but child labour is something that exists today: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour#21st_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_labour#21st_century Additionally, here's a list of currently 37 countries that rely on taxation from wealthier countries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavily_indebted_poor_countries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavily_indebted_poor_countrie...
        zeropnc 7y ago
        ...how is that an answer to my question?
        johnisgood 7y ago
        Yeah, somehow child labor = children are dying. It is ridiculous. Most of the time they are better off working, and not just to gain experience, but to bring money or food home and so on. Heck, when I was a kid, most kids I knew worked and was better off doing that. They were not dying, they are not dead. What gives then? His link even mentions this: > Contrary to popular belief, most child labourers are employed by their parents rather than in manufacturing or formal economy. > Preventing children from participating in productive work would be more harmful to their welfare and that of their group in the long run Child labor is not inherently wrong, and no one says the kids should have to work in harsh conditions just like the adults. Child labor != children dying. It is not an answer to your question, he just has absolutely no clue what he is talking about. It is yet another instance of "think about the children" gone wrong. I mean, yeah dude, working at retail or assembling whatever is killing our children! Absurd. Edit: I am against forced labor when it comes to both children AND adults.
        7y ago
- acct1771 7y ago
  Instead, we've seemingly gone the opposite extreme, and kids barely understand how to exist outside and amongst their peers, let alone do an hour of hard work.
llukas 7y ago
You want to be a citizen AND do not pay taxes? You cannot really get one without another. This is two way street. Renounce citizenship and nobody would care about your taxes. If you do not want to then you as free willed entity chosen that being citizen paying taxes bring you more benefit than not being one.
- johnisgood 7y ago
  > Renouncing U.S. citizenship doesn't free you from U.S. tax obligations and means that even after the renunciation, the IRS could still audit and assess taxes and penalties. Nice try.