5 ms·

It’s funny how the mind works. We tend to accept the far greater risk of allowing automated software updates (either in-app or blindly trusting your package man

It’s funny how the mind works. We tend to accept the far greater risk of allowing automated software updates (either in-app or blindly trusting your package manager e.g. apt-get upgrade) but the Firefox Studies mechanism which does a minuscule, strict subset of what any automatic update can do is somehow a “crazy security risk”.

swebs 7y ago
I chose to run apt-get to install packages. I have never opted-in to, nor even known about, how Firefox was running "studies" on me before this event. It's like finding out the TV you bought last year has a hidden camera and it's been recording you the whole time.
- sjwright 7y ago
  It's not really fair to call it "studies" in quotations. It's better described as software micro-updates which can be progressively deployed in case the change has a regression. They do little more than enable/disable features already shipped in the binary you're running. In my own browser, if I go to about:studies, I have two Studies running. One is the hotfix for the add-on signing issue. The other is: prefflip-push-performance-1491171 • Active This study sets dom.push.alwaysConnect to false. If you equate that to a camera hidden in your TV, you might want to consider giving up whatever drugs you're on.
  - sciurus 7y ago
    In case you're curious, that other one is part of https://blog.mozilla.org/services/2018/10/03/upcoming-push-shield-study/ https://blog.mozilla.org/services/2018/10/03/upcoming-push-s... (Disclosure: I work for Mozilla)
Twirrim 7y ago
In the case of apt-get, there's a release process with signed packages and open source code that the distributions adhere to, publicly visible oversight etc. End users specifically make the choice, either to run the upgrade process themselves, or set up automated upgrades on the understanding of what processes things have gone through, and the ability to verify. The Studies mechanism occurs silently, running private code, without specific user action, and with "extensive access to Firefox internal APIs".
- sjwright 7y ago
  The Studies mechanism is clear, public and fully transparent. You can see what they've done. You can see what they plan to do. It's all out in the open. At the end of the day the question is whether you can trust Mozilla. I trust them more than most entities, including many that push changes through apt-get.
  - Twirrim 7y ago
    Yes, Studies, that mechanism so open that end users didn't know about it until they found they were participating in some random Augmented Reality marketing collaboration with a TV show. I would love to see a link to the code related to various Studies. So far I've not been able to find any. All you seem to get told is the name of any studies you're in, and only if you go over to about:studies and go looking. This is not to say I don't trust Mozilla. I do. I trust them far more than I do Google / Chrome. It's hard not to see Studies as a privacy nightmare, though, and the level of power it has is disturbing.
    - sciurus 7y ago
      You can see the bugs filed for past and upcoming studies at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?list_id=14712186&resolution=---&classification=Client%20Software&classification=Developer%20Infrastructure&classification=Components&classification=Server%20Software&classification=Other&query_format=advanced&component=Shield%20Study&product=Shield https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?list_id=14712186&re... When the study involves an addon, I think the bug will link to its code. (Disclosure: I work for Mozilla)
AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
Normal update channels usually ask me (or let me set it so that they have to ask me) if I want to apply the update and I make sure to at least read the changelog if not skim through the source. In addition to that I trust the Debian team much more than I trust the Mozilla team. The studies in contrast are both for anti-user things such as telemetry and the mr robot thing, are inconvenient to disable, are not transparent (it would be difficult for me to find the source of a specific study), happen silently, and skip the Debian team's judgement.
- sjwright 7y ago
  I love it. You read the changelog and what, you reject the update for some trivial thing you don't like and stay on that previous version forever? Seriously, look at how studies operates. If you're using firefox, go to about:studies and see for yourself.
  - AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
    No, I reject the update for non-trivial issues which I feel that violate my privacy or could pose some other serious threat and move to some other browser as soon as possible. > look at how studies operates It works on the background and without asking you anything. Is that correct? > If you're using firefox, go to about:studies and see for yourself. It says "You have not participated in any studies." - probably because I have them disabled.

swebs 7y ago

I chose to run apt-get to install packages. I have never opted-in to, nor even known about, how Firefox was running "studies" on me before this event. It's like finding out the TV you bought last year has a hidden camera and it's been recording you the whole time.

sjwright 7y ago
It's not really fair to call it "studies" in quotations. It's better described as software micro-updates which can be progressively deployed in case the change has a regression. They do little more than enable/disable features already shipped in the binary you're running. In my own browser, if I go to about:studies, I have two Studies running. One is the hotfix for the add-on signing issue. The other is: prefflip-push-performance-1491171 • Active This study sets dom.push.alwaysConnect to false. If you equate that to a camera hidden in your TV, you might want to consider giving up whatever drugs you're on.
- sciurus 7y ago
  In case you're curious, that other one is part of https://blog.mozilla.org/services/2018/10/03/upcoming-push-shield-study/ https://blog.mozilla.org/services/2018/10/03/upcoming-push-s... (Disclosure: I work for Mozilla)

Twirrim 7y ago

In the case of apt-get, there's a release process with signed packages and open source code that the distributions adhere to, publicly visible oversight etc. End users specifically make the choice, either to run the upgrade process themselves, or set up automated upgrades on the understanding of what processes things have gone through, and the ability to verify. The Studies mechanism occurs silently, running private code, without specific user action, and with "extensive access to Firefox internal APIs".

sjwright 7y ago
The Studies mechanism is clear, public and fully transparent. You can see what they've done. You can see what they plan to do. It's all out in the open. At the end of the day the question is whether you can trust Mozilla. I trust them more than most entities, including many that push changes through apt-get.
- Twirrim 7y ago
  Yes, Studies, that mechanism so open that end users didn't know about it until they found they were participating in some random Augmented Reality marketing collaboration with a TV show. I would love to see a link to the code related to various Studies. So far I've not been able to find any. All you seem to get told is the name of any studies you're in, and only if you go over to about:studies and go looking. This is not to say I don't trust Mozilla. I do. I trust them far more than I do Google / Chrome. It's hard not to see Studies as a privacy nightmare, though, and the level of power it has is disturbing.
  - sciurus 7y ago
    You can see the bugs filed for past and upcoming studies at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?list_id=14712186&resolution=---&classification=Client%20Software&classification=Developer%20Infrastructure&classification=Components&classification=Server%20Software&classification=Other&query_format=advanced&component=Shield%20Study&product=Shield https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/buglist.cgi?list_id=14712186&re... When the study involves an addon, I think the bug will link to its code. (Disclosure: I work for Mozilla)

AnaniasAnanas 7y ago

Normal update channels usually ask me (or let me set it so that they have to ask me) if I want to apply the update and I make sure to at least read the changelog if not skim through the source. In addition to that I trust the Debian team much more than I trust the Mozilla team. The studies in contrast are both for anti-user things such as telemetry and the mr robot thing, are inconvenient to disable, are not transparent (it would be difficult for me to find the source of a specific study), happen silently, and skip the Debian team's judgement.

sjwright 7y ago
I love it. You read the changelog and what, you reject the update for some trivial thing you don't like and stay on that previous version forever? Seriously, look at how studies operates. If you're using firefox, go to about:studies and see for yourself.
- AnaniasAnanas 7y ago
  No, I reject the update for non-trivial issues which I feel that violate my privacy or could pose some other serious threat and move to some other browser as soon as possible. > look at how studies operates It works on the background and without asking you anything. Is that correct? > If you're using firefox, go to about:studies and see for yourself. It says "You have not participated in any studies." - probably because I have them disabled.