5 ms·

Not OP, but Seattle is almost as big as SF [0] (825,000 people in SF compared to 775,000 people in Seattle), Seattle has 2.5x the number of cranes up compared t

by mrep 7y ago

Not OP, but Seattle is almost as big as SF [0] (825,000 people in SF compared to 775,000 people in Seattle), Seattle has 2.5x the number of cranes up compared to SF [1] (65 cranes in Seattle compared to 26 in SF), Seattle rents have actually gone down recently because of so much new supply [2], and Seattle's average rent is only 57% of SF [3]. I'm not going to say it's just NIMBYism, but whatever they are doing, they are a prime example of what not to do. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_b... [1]: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/seattle-tops-the-nation-in-tower-cranes-for-third-straight-year-as-construction-reaches-new-peak/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/real-estate/seattle-to... [2]: https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2019/01/apartment-rents-dropping-in-seattle-landlords-compete-for-tenants-as-market-cools.html https://www.oregonlive.com/business/2019/01/apartment-rents-... [3]: https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-funds/personal-finance/highest-rent-us-cities/ https://www.investors.com/etfs-and-funds/personal-finance/hi...

abalone 7y ago
Ah, thank you for the sourcing. I shall read them but I was wondering if you have a response to this critical analysis, "Seattle — A Cautionary Tale for Supply-Side Housing Advocates."[1] It notes how Seattle is often cited by deregulation advocates, but that "in spite of decades of indisputably strong development, Seattle’s share of cost-burdened renters has barely budged." And "by overbuilding housing for the wealthy, Seattle has achieved some short-term improvement in affordability for the middle class, at the expense of substantial displacement and continued upward pressure on the most vulnerable." This I think is at the heart of what in SF some call the YIMBY vs. PHIMBY[2] debate. YIMBYs tend to skew towards more privileged techie types (happy to dig up sourcing on this.. I recall the YIMBY national meeting being called overwhlemingly white). Whereas the PHIMBYs or whatever you want to call them, the deeply affordable housing advocates, see flaws in that simplistic trickle-down economics model based on lived experience in working-class neighborhoods undergoing gentrification. [1] https://knock-la.com/seattle-a-cautionary-tale-for-supply-side-housing-advocates-5b4ca5ed6d02 https://knock-la.com/seattle-a-cautionary-tale-for-supply-si... [2] https://yahbayarea.org https://yahbayarea.org or https://twitter.com/YahBayArea https://twitter.com/YahBayArea
- irq11 7y ago
  Careful, you’re bringing facts to an opinion fight. The parent is wrong, and is cherry-picking data. Seattle rents may have gone down “recently”, but they’ve been amongst the fastest-rising rents in the US until about a year ago. They’re far higher than they were a few years ago, let alone a decade ago. Also, saying that prices are lower than San Francisco is utterly meaningless. San Francisco is a different economy. It was more expensive than Seattle twenty years ago, and it’s more expensive now. You can’t make the comparison without controlling a bunch of variables.
  - UnpossibleJim 7y ago
    I'm genuinely confused as to why you're being downvoted. I live in Seattle, having bought a couple of houses in the last 10 years, watching the market pretty carefully and you aren't wrong. This is one of the most expensive markets in the country.... fourth or fifth. It's kind of ridiculous. The "drop" is in the last 3 years after a 12 year steep rise, and it's not even really a drop, more of a leveling off instead of a continued steep incline. A lot of that has to do with over investment in companies buying properties for apartment complexes, on speculation that population growth would continue at a steady rate instead of curve like real world models.
    - shuckles 7y ago
      Starting a comment with a put down like the parent did is not well-received by the community.
      - abalone 7y ago
        I started mine by politely thanking for the sourcing and I still got downvoted. I think there are politically motivated downvoters on this topic.
        shuckles 7y ago
        You have more reason to be "genuinely confused" than the parent, who I was responding to.
asveikau 7y ago
I have lived in both places and I think Seattle makes for an interesting, worthy comparison. However, also worth noting that Seattle has a larger land mass. Also, that 57% rent comparison is less impressive when you consider that Seattle has been cheaper than SF for decades - both places have spent most of the current decade raising rents, Seattle starting off at a lower point in the beginning of the trend.

by mrep 7y ago

abalone 7y ago

Ah, thank you for the sourcing. I shall read them but I was wondering if you have a response to this critical analysis, "Seattle — A Cautionary Tale for Supply-Side Housing Advocates."[1] It notes how Seattle is often cited by deregulation advocates, but that "in spite of decades of indisputably strong development, Seattle’s share of cost-burdened renters has barely budged." And "by overbuilding housing for the wealthy, Seattle has achieved some short-term improvement in affordability for the middle class, at the expense of substantial displacement and continued upward pressure on the most vulnerable." This I think is at the heart of what in SF some call the YIMBY vs. PHIMBY[2] debate. YIMBYs tend to skew towards more privileged techie types (happy to dig up sourcing on this.. I recall the YIMBY national meeting being called overwhlemingly white). Whereas the PHIMBYs or whatever you want to call them, the deeply affordable housing advocates, see flaws in that simplistic trickle-down economics model based on lived experience in working-class neighborhoods undergoing gentrification. [1] https://knock-la.com/seattle-a-cautionary-tale-for-supply-side-housing-advocates-5b4ca5ed6d02 https://knock-la.com/seattle-a-cautionary-tale-for-supply-si... [2] https://yahbayarea.org https://yahbayarea.org or https://twitter.com/YahBayArea https://twitter.com/YahBayArea

irq11 7y ago
Careful, you’re bringing facts to an opinion fight. The parent is wrong, and is cherry-picking data. Seattle rents may have gone down “recently”, but they’ve been amongst the fastest-rising rents in the US until about a year ago. They’re far higher than they were a few years ago, let alone a decade ago. Also, saying that prices are lower than San Francisco is utterly meaningless. San Francisco is a different economy. It was more expensive than Seattle twenty years ago, and it’s more expensive now. You can’t make the comparison without controlling a bunch of variables.
- UnpossibleJim 7y ago
  I'm genuinely confused as to why you're being downvoted. I live in Seattle, having bought a couple of houses in the last 10 years, watching the market pretty carefully and you aren't wrong. This is one of the most expensive markets in the country.... fourth or fifth. It's kind of ridiculous. The "drop" is in the last 3 years after a 12 year steep rise, and it's not even really a drop, more of a leveling off instead of a continued steep incline. A lot of that has to do with over investment in companies buying properties for apartment complexes, on speculation that population growth would continue at a steady rate instead of curve like real world models.
  - shuckles 7y ago
    Starting a comment with a put down like the parent did is not well-received by the community.
    - abalone 7y ago
      I started mine by politely thanking for the sourcing and I still got downvoted. I think there are politically motivated downvoters on this topic.
      - shuckles 7y ago
        You have more reason to be "genuinely confused" than the parent, who I was responding to.

asveikau 7y ago

I have lived in both places and I think Seattle makes for an interesting, worthy comparison. However, also worth noting that Seattle has a larger land mass. Also, that 57% rent comparison is less impressive when you consider that Seattle has been cheaper than SF for decades - both places have spent most of the current decade raising rents, Seattle starting off at a lower point in the beginning of the trend.