6 ms·

> microtransactions in casual games are winning in the financial sense, despite the complaints of "hardcore" gamers. I'm not a "hardcore" gamer - I'm incredibl

> microtransactions in casual games are winning in the financial sense, despite the complaints of "hardcore" gamers. I'm not a "hardcore" gamer - I'm incredibly casual. I hate microtransactions because the focus has switched to "addictive" play rather than "rewarding" play. Microtransactions are usually BAD for casuals - You might have 10 minutes to play but can only play for 5 mins without paying up. You might have one night a week to play, but it wants you to log in for a few minutes every couple of hours, etc. BUT the lack of alternatives means that there will be plenty of money spent on them. So I think this is a matter of "microtransactions out-earn flat cost games despite likely player preferences", not "hardcore vs casual".

taurath 7y ago
Rewarding play is addictive play - the rewards are why its addictive. There's people who've put 10,000 hours into Diablo 2, for example, a game that is incredibly repetitive at the highest level - they play for the chance of that one great random drop. Microtransaction games generally trade money or time, and then put barriers up on the time, or increase it vastly. The difference is when it feels like you're being asked for money it turns it exploitive, rather than being asked to spend 100 hours waiting for a yellow item to drop (that being more akin to "skill" and "investment"). Players want their reward fix. Microtransaction games are frequently like a watered-down drug. Just like social media, I don't think that just because people use them means they're a good thing - its junk food for the mind.
- ahartmetz 7y ago
  Good observation about Diablo. Diablo 1 was the last Blizzard game whose art style I liked, but I stopped playing when I realized that I was clicking on enemies until they're dead. The actual core game mechanics are garbage.
  - wil421 7y ago
    I was old enough to play the Diablos, Starcraft and Warcraft when they came out. When I was kid playing Diablo it don’t bother me. When Diablo III came out I played it as an adult and realize it was just clicking. I hated the game. Starcraft is still nice but I don’t play it. Almost bought Diablo for my Switch this year and recalled how much of it is just clicking.
    - baud147258 7y ago
      Or perhaps Diablo III wasn't a very good game?
  - dragonsngoblins 7y ago
    I enjoyed Diablo 2 a lot when I was younger but didn't care anywhere near as much for my experience with 3. I think the main issue is that with 2 I mostly played it in the same room as friends I was playing it with, and it was more something to do while we would hang out and talk to each other. I played with friends when I played 3 too, but it wasn't in person and I think that hurt it
  - baud147258 7y ago
    I recently finished Titan Quest (with the latest expansion), a Diablo clone. And I found that most of the gameplay wasn't just clicking: it was choosing on which enemy to click (to prioritise the most dangerous enemy first for example), when and where to use my skills/scrolls/potions; then outside of combat, which equipment to use, which skills/stats to upgrade, which upgrade to apply on which piece of equipment. Another important part was also the art style/ambience of the levels, which was an important part of my enjoyment of the game. On the other hand I spent little time grinding and have little desire to play the game a second time on harder difficulty.
    - ahartmetz 7y ago
      That is exactly the same as Diablo and all true. The metagame is moderately interesting and the artwork / ambiance / style (in Diablo 1, for me) is nice.
      - baud147258 7y ago
        Yes, that's why I disagreed with the idea that Diablo = click on enemies until they're dead; it's a little more than that.
- ergothus 7y ago
  > Rewarding play is addictive play - the rewards are why its addictive true, but addictive gameplay isn't necessarily rewarding. That's the critical difference I was trying to emphasize.
  - taurath 7y ago
    I think it is - you're being rewarded with "progress", even as the game gives you the concept.
    - ergothus 7y ago
      That's "a reward". I'm talking about whether at the end of a gaming session you feel good and would like to play again (rewarding) or if you feel unfulfilled and want to play more try and get that fulfillment. Rewarding.
- derefr 7y ago
  > they play for the chance of that one great random drop You know, I've always been confused by this: if a game is using random chance to require probabilistic hours/days of effort in order to find some drop, my first response to finding that out is not "grinding for the drop", but rather "hacking the game to give myself that thing." (First thing that comes to mind: the Sword of Kings in Earthbound.) In such cases, the only thing standing in my way of the goal is mindless—and totally automatable—repetition. I could write a bot to grind a Sword of Kings for me. Heck, I could download someone else's bot they already wrote. So what's the difference between downloading+running such a bot, and just editing the game in a save-game editor to give myself the sword? Same amount of effort. Same reward. Either way I'm not really "playing the game." But either way, I get to skip the part of the game that isn't fun, and get back to doing something that is fun. The only place where I feel that this approach doesn't apply, is when the game isn't using HWRNG randomness, but rather deterministic seed-based randomness, like Minecraft or many modern roguelikes. If the resources I want are only available down on the 90th floor of the dungeon in this seed—and that's a deterministic fact-of-life of the seed—then that's just the scenario I signed up to play, and I'll accept it. But, of course, with such systems, I get to "choose my luck" by looking for a generous or mean seed someone else discovered during their own playthrough (or using a bot to scan for such seeds.)
  - rifung 7y ago
    > You know, I've always been confused by this: if a game is using random chance to require probabilistic hours/days of effort in order to find some drop, my first response to finding that out is not "grinding for the drop", but rather "hacking the game to give myself that thing." (First thing that comes to mind: the Sword of Kings in Earthbound.) I don't think I was nearly as smart as you but Maplestory was actually my first introduction to computing. The game was really grindy and required you to just use your mana (I was a mage), and then sit to recover it, and then go back to killing stuff. It seems like they didn't do server side checks so I actually learned how to use a memory editor and just save the mana field which made it so that it didn't go down. Of course, the problem with this is that it morally questionable since it gives you an unfair advantage and gets you banned.
  - Scarblac 7y ago
- klaidliadon 7y ago
  Would you apply the same reasoning to card games like Hearthstone or Magic Arena?
  - Scarblac 7y ago
    I was thinking about Hearthstone reading his comment, it's exactly like that -- huge time investment if you want to pay nothing or a little bit, less time investment if you pay. That said, the amount you have to pay to get a large collection in Hearthstone is staggering, if you drop $80 every few months for the next expansion you still only have a few of the epic and legendary cards.
    - taurath 7y ago
      And those cards become useless in 9 months as they rotate out of standard. Have a great deck you find fun to play one month? Gauranteed it no longer works after another 2. It’s an incredibly efficient scheme to make you want to buy more packs, if you’ve decided you want to be good at the game.
watwut 7y ago
I can talk only for myself, but flat cost games lost me years ago. They either were not making games I liked or did not marketed them where I could find them. Effectively, I was unable to find a game I would enjoy without paying too much for games I did not. Free to play games with microtransactions I liked were easy to find and whenever I guessed wrong, attempt was for free. So for all the crumbling, there are people like me who gained on that development.
- DanielleMolloy 7y ago
  I could not name a single microtransactions game that offers a similarly deep or atmospheric or satisfying experience as, say, Breath of the Wild, The Witcher 3, Final Fantasy X or a round of multiplayer Mario Kart. Can you..? Virtually all free to play and free online games I know are exploiting human psychological vulnerabilities in some way or another to keep you playing. Those games leave me completely unsatisfied.
  - watwut 7y ago
    Wither 3 would require me to take holidays or ignore familly duties for weeks. Aaand it is not the kind of game I ever liked anyway (even if I had that time). I understand that other people like it, but these games are not for me. It is very similar with other games you mentioned. Not for me at all (maybe Mario kart would be exception for occasional play).
    - thirdsun 7y ago
      > Wither 3 would require me to take holidays or ignore familly duties for weeks. This argument comes up often, but I as soemone who also has limited time I can't understand it. Nobody forces you to finish huge games like The Witcher 3 in weeks, months or even years. It just means that the price of such a game buys you a lot and long-lasting entertainment (assuming you like the content). Just take your time, use the free evening that may come up every few weeks and enjoy the game much longer than most people. Admittedly, 10 minute play sessions won't work in this case, but if you never have more time than that available, I'd say there are other things to consider, but it's not my place to judge.

taurath 7y ago

Rewarding play is addictive play - the rewards are why its addictive. There's people who've put 10,000 hours into Diablo 2, for example, a game that is incredibly repetitive at the highest level - they play for the chance of that one great random drop. Microtransaction games generally trade money or time, and then put barriers up on the time, or increase it vastly. The difference is when it feels like you're being asked for money it turns it exploitive, rather than being asked to spend 100 hours waiting for a yellow item to drop (that being more akin to "skill" and "investment"). Players want their reward fix. Microtransaction games are frequently like a watered-down drug. Just like social media, I don't think that just because people use them means they're a good thing - its junk food for the mind.

ahartmetz 7y ago
Good observation about Diablo. Diablo 1 was the last Blizzard game whose art style I liked, but I stopped playing when I realized that I was clicking on enemies until they're dead. The actual core game mechanics are garbage.
- wil421 7y ago
  I was old enough to play the Diablos, Starcraft and Warcraft when they came out. When I was kid playing Diablo it don’t bother me. When Diablo III came out I played it as an adult and realize it was just clicking. I hated the game. Starcraft is still nice but I don’t play it. Almost bought Diablo for my Switch this year and recalled how much of it is just clicking.
  - baud147258 7y ago
    Or perhaps Diablo III wasn't a very good game?
- dragonsngoblins 7y ago
  I enjoyed Diablo 2 a lot when I was younger but didn't care anywhere near as much for my experience with 3. I think the main issue is that with 2 I mostly played it in the same room as friends I was playing it with, and it was more something to do while we would hang out and talk to each other. I played with friends when I played 3 too, but it wasn't in person and I think that hurt it
- baud147258 7y ago
  I recently finished Titan Quest (with the latest expansion), a Diablo clone. And I found that most of the gameplay wasn't just clicking: it was choosing on which enemy to click (to prioritise the most dangerous enemy first for example), when and where to use my skills/scrolls/potions; then outside of combat, which equipment to use, which skills/stats to upgrade, which upgrade to apply on which piece of equipment. Another important part was also the art style/ambience of the levels, which was an important part of my enjoyment of the game. On the other hand I spent little time grinding and have little desire to play the game a second time on harder difficulty.
  - ahartmetz 7y ago
    That is exactly the same as Diablo and all true. The metagame is moderately interesting and the artwork / ambiance / style (in Diablo 1, for me) is nice.
    - baud147258 7y ago
      Yes, that's why I disagreed with the idea that Diablo = click on enemies until they're dead; it's a little more than that.
ergothus 7y ago
> Rewarding play is addictive play - the rewards are why its addictive true, but addictive gameplay isn't necessarily rewarding. That's the critical difference I was trying to emphasize.
- taurath 7y ago
  I think it is - you're being rewarded with "progress", even as the game gives you the concept.
  - ergothus 7y ago
    That's "a reward". I'm talking about whether at the end of a gaming session you feel good and would like to play again (rewarding) or if you feel unfulfilled and want to play more try and get that fulfillment. Rewarding.
derefr 7y ago
> they play for the chance of that one great random drop You know, I've always been confused by this: if a game is using random chance to require probabilistic hours/days of effort in order to find some drop, my first response to finding that out is not "grinding for the drop", but rather "hacking the game to give myself that thing." (First thing that comes to mind: the Sword of Kings in Earthbound.) In such cases, the only thing standing in my way of the goal is mindless—and totally automatable—repetition. I could write a bot to grind a Sword of Kings for me. Heck, I could download someone else's bot they already wrote. So what's the difference between downloading+running such a bot, and just editing the game in a save-game editor to give myself the sword? Same amount of effort. Same reward. Either way I'm not really "playing the game." But either way, I get to skip the part of the game that isn't fun, and get back to doing something that is fun. The only place where I feel that this approach doesn't apply, is when the game isn't using HWRNG randomness, but rather deterministic seed-based randomness, like Minecraft or many modern roguelikes. If the resources I want are only available down on the 90th floor of the dungeon in this seed—and that's a deterministic fact-of-life of the seed—then that's just the scenario I signed up to play, and I'll accept it. But, of course, with such systems, I get to "choose my luck" by looking for a generous or mean seed someone else discovered during their own playthrough (or using a bot to scan for such seeds.)
- rifung 7y ago
  > You know, I've always been confused by this: if a game is using random chance to require probabilistic hours/days of effort in order to find some drop, my first response to finding that out is not "grinding for the drop", but rather "hacking the game to give myself that thing." (First thing that comes to mind: the Sword of Kings in Earthbound.) I don't think I was nearly as smart as you but Maplestory was actually my first introduction to computing. The game was really grindy and required you to just use your mana (I was a mage), and then sit to recover it, and then go back to killing stuff. It seems like they didn't do server side checks so I actually learned how to use a memory editor and just save the mana field which made it so that it didn't go down. Of course, the problem with this is that it morally questionable since it gives you an unfair advantage and gets you banned.
- Scarblac 7y ago
klaidliadon 7y ago
Would you apply the same reasoning to card games like Hearthstone or Magic Arena?
- Scarblac 7y ago
  I was thinking about Hearthstone reading his comment, it's exactly like that -- huge time investment if you want to pay nothing or a little bit, less time investment if you pay. That said, the amount you have to pay to get a large collection in Hearthstone is staggering, if you drop $80 every few months for the next expansion you still only have a few of the epic and legendary cards.
  - taurath 7y ago
    And those cards become useless in 9 months as they rotate out of standard. Have a great deck you find fun to play one month? Gauranteed it no longer works after another 2. It’s an incredibly efficient scheme to make you want to buy more packs, if you’ve decided you want to be good at the game.

watwut 7y ago

I can talk only for myself, but flat cost games lost me years ago. They either were not making games I liked or did not marketed them where I could find them. Effectively, I was unable to find a game I would enjoy without paying too much for games I did not. Free to play games with microtransactions I liked were easy to find and whenever I guessed wrong, attempt was for free. So for all the crumbling, there are people like me who gained on that development.

DanielleMolloy 7y ago
I could not name a single microtransactions game that offers a similarly deep or atmospheric or satisfying experience as, say, Breath of the Wild, The Witcher 3, Final Fantasy X or a round of multiplayer Mario Kart. Can you..? Virtually all free to play and free online games I know are exploiting human psychological vulnerabilities in some way or another to keep you playing. Those games leave me completely unsatisfied.
- watwut 7y ago
  Wither 3 would require me to take holidays or ignore familly duties for weeks. Aaand it is not the kind of game I ever liked anyway (even if I had that time). I understand that other people like it, but these games are not for me. It is very similar with other games you mentioned. Not for me at all (maybe Mario kart would be exception for occasional play).
  - thirdsun 7y ago
    > Wither 3 would require me to take holidays or ignore familly duties for weeks. This argument comes up often, but I as soemone who also has limited time I can't understand it. Nobody forces you to finish huge games like The Witcher 3 in weeks, months or even years. It just means that the price of such a game buys you a lot and long-lasting entertainment (assuming you like the content). Just take your time, use the free evening that may come up every few weeks and enjoy the game much longer than most people. Admittedly, 10 minute play sessions won't work in this case, but if you never have more time than that available, I'd say there are other things to consider, but it's not my place to judge.