4 ms·

Because of the decades of things not displacing it - when someone suggests "oh we'll just do it simpler" they often are not seeing the forest for the trees. Si

by hobs 8y ago

Because of the decades of things not displacing it - when someone suggests "oh we'll just do it simpler" they often are not seeing the forest for the trees. Simpler languages have been shipped dozens if not hundreds of times, and they generally tend towards expressing the things they missed or not giving enough functionality for the things they missed. I am not saying its impossible, but you're going to have to do a lot more than hand waving to justify the reverse position.

chuckgreenman 8y ago
It's sort of like the mouse trap problem. Mouse traps and SQL are already incredibly simple and incredible effective, that's why you don't see a reinvented mouse trap at home depot and why SQL remains unseated despite many efforts to replace it.
- adamlett 8y ago
  You really think SQL is incredibly simple? I think TFA makes a pretty convincing argument that it is anything but.
  - chuckgreenman 8y ago
    Certainly there are complex aspects of it but you could teach someone how to do most of what you need to do in SQL in under an hour.
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    Most common SQL statements read like somewhat stilted english. Many non-programmers find this particularly accessible. Yes you can make some lovecraftian horrors if you really want to, but SQL is one of those things where just a little bit of knowledge goes a long way. If you can understand the basics you can get a lot of work done. It's a lot like Excel. You can do some really complex confusing stuff in Excel. But you can also teach the basics to non-programmers quite easily, and command of the basic skills will be very empowering. Basic knowledge of Excel, like SQL, gives the user new ways to leverage computers when creating their own solutions to their own problems.
    - adamlett 8y ago
      Most common SQL statements read like somewhat stilted english. Many non-programmers find this particularly accessible. The problem is not reading SQL, but writing it. It's a lot like Excel. You can do some really complex confusing stuff in Excel […] Basic knowledge of Excel, like SQL, gives the user new ways to leverage computers when creating their own solutions to their own problems. I can’t speak to your experiences, but I’ve never in my life encountered someone who was not a professional programmer ever even contemplating using SQL for anything let alone creating their own solutions to their own problems. I think it’s safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of people who use SQL, are programmers who most certainly cannot get by with just basic knowledge.
      - perl4ever 8y ago
        "I’ve never in my life encountered someone who was not a professional programmer ever even contemplating using SQL for anything" I have. That's only an anecdotal observation, but it seems to me that the existence of Visual Basic and the popularity over the years, combined with the utter disdain for it by "real programmers" is evidence that, more generally, there are a huge number of kinda, sorta, programmers who are outside the IT culture.
      - darkpuma 8y ago
        Librarians and secretaries are two examples of "non-programmer" careers where functional knowledge of SQL is pretty common. Less-so these days with secretaries, but moreso for librarians. Not to mention tons of researchers across countless disciplines have SQL in their toolboxes. I've even met government bureaucrats with professional backgrounds in regional banking that know SQL. Previous programming experience? Using HP-12c calculators... >I think it’s safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of people who use SQL, are programmers who most certainly cannot get by with just basic knowledge. Most demonstrably do though, so there's that. If you cast a wide net when polling programmers, I think you'd find that mode level of knowledge was relatively low. You don't need to be a SQL rockstar ninja dude to do what most professional programmers are doing with SQL most of the time. Obviously advanced knowledge is good for any professional programmer to have, but the fact is there are a TON of people out there who only know the basics, and that works for them.
- perl4ever 8y ago
  "that's why you don't see a reinvented mouse trap at home depot" Interesting for you to say that. The last time I went looking for mouse traps, I found that every place I went had a reinvented type, and traditional style were extremely hard to find. Yet, it is true that the traditional style is simple and effective. I've learned from experience that anything else is likely to be useless.

by hobs 8y ago

chuckgreenman 8y ago

It's sort of like the mouse trap problem. Mouse traps and SQL are already incredibly simple and incredible effective, that's why you don't see a reinvented mouse trap at home depot and why SQL remains unseated despite many efforts to replace it.

adamlett 8y ago
You really think SQL is incredibly simple? I think TFA makes a pretty convincing argument that it is anything but.
- chuckgreenman 8y ago
  Certainly there are complex aspects of it but you could teach someone how to do most of what you need to do in SQL in under an hour.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  Most common SQL statements read like somewhat stilted english. Many non-programmers find this particularly accessible. Yes you can make some lovecraftian horrors if you really want to, but SQL is one of those things where just a little bit of knowledge goes a long way. If you can understand the basics you can get a lot of work done. It's a lot like Excel. You can do some really complex confusing stuff in Excel. But you can also teach the basics to non-programmers quite easily, and command of the basic skills will be very empowering. Basic knowledge of Excel, like SQL, gives the user new ways to leverage computers when creating their own solutions to their own problems.
  - adamlett 8y ago
    Most common SQL statements read like somewhat stilted english. Many non-programmers find this particularly accessible. The problem is not reading SQL, but writing it. It's a lot like Excel. You can do some really complex confusing stuff in Excel […] Basic knowledge of Excel, like SQL, gives the user new ways to leverage computers when creating their own solutions to their own problems. I can’t speak to your experiences, but I’ve never in my life encountered someone who was not a professional programmer ever even contemplating using SQL for anything let alone creating their own solutions to their own problems. I think it’s safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of people who use SQL, are programmers who most certainly cannot get by with just basic knowledge.
    - perl4ever 8y ago
      "I’ve never in my life encountered someone who was not a professional programmer ever even contemplating using SQL for anything" I have. That's only an anecdotal observation, but it seems to me that the existence of Visual Basic and the popularity over the years, combined with the utter disdain for it by "real programmers" is evidence that, more generally, there are a huge number of kinda, sorta, programmers who are outside the IT culture.
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      Librarians and secretaries are two examples of "non-programmer" careers where functional knowledge of SQL is pretty common. Less-so these days with secretaries, but moreso for librarians. Not to mention tons of researchers across countless disciplines have SQL in their toolboxes. I've even met government bureaucrats with professional backgrounds in regional banking that know SQL. Previous programming experience? Using HP-12c calculators... >I think it’s safe to assume that the overwhelming majority of people who use SQL, are programmers who most certainly cannot get by with just basic knowledge. Most demonstrably do though, so there's that. If you cast a wide net when polling programmers, I think you'd find that mode level of knowledge was relatively low. You don't need to be a SQL rockstar ninja dude to do what most professional programmers are doing with SQL most of the time. Obviously advanced knowledge is good for any professional programmer to have, but the fact is there are a TON of people out there who only know the basics, and that works for them.
perl4ever 8y ago
"that's why you don't see a reinvented mouse trap at home depot" Interesting for you to say that. The last time I went looking for mouse traps, I found that every place I went had a reinvented type, and traditional style were extremely hard to find. Yet, it is true that the traditional style is simple and effective. I've learned from experience that anything else is likely to be useless.