5 ms·

Unencumbered Open Source Commodore 64 ROMs

98 points by reidrac 7y ago

jandrese 7y ago
Is there not a good reference for doing a clean room implementation? These guys seem to be trying to figure it out from base principals and are struggling. Certainly someone must have written a book or something by now. Maybe start here: http://www.uta.edu/cse/levine/fall99/cse5324/cr/clean/page1.html http://www.uta.edu/cse/levine/fall99/cse5324/cr/clean/page1....
- tom_ 7y ago
  I dunno, man? I think their justification sounds pretty sensible: approx 100% of qualified C64 developers will have spent a good deal of time poring over the original code, so there's a very good chance that any supposedly clean room implementation will, legally speaking, be anything but. Hence all the extra palaver. (The only questionaible thing in my view is why they aren't using 64tass.)
monocasa 7y ago
Did they get a lawyer to look at their reasoning? It reads like what you get when software guys try to make "common sense" reasoning about IP law.
- incompatible 7y ago
  Yeah, their argument that an "implied right" to copyrighted materials arises just because it's widely infringed and the copyright holder hasn't sued anybody, seems fishy. I think they are confused with trademarks. Any citations of actual legal cases would be welcome. This is only an aside to their actual reverse engineering work, but still.
  - phkahler 7y ago
    That whole section should just be deleted as IANAL speculation. If they're not sure about it then it's just noise. If they were sure about it, the project would be redundant.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
orionblastar 7y ago
They can be used in emulators and replaced on C64 boards that had the ROMs burn out. This reminds me of the Amiga ROM Kickstart that AROS made for Amiga 68K units o run AROS in emulators or real Amigas. I see a lot of projects like this in Europe. I guess their IP laws are slacker than the USA?
- jacobush 7y ago
  Maybe the US devs are slacker... haha, no I expect them to be busy making money hand over fist.
thought_alarm 7y ago
According to this [0] reddit post, the copyright on the C64 ROMs is currently owned by a company called Cloanto [1], whose premier product is a COM/ActiveX currency converter, like it's 1999. Anyway, it sounds like a fun project. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/c64/comments/6d8ss0/who_owns_the_commodore_trademark_now/ https://www.reddit.com/r/c64/comments/6d8ss0/who_owns_the_co... [1] https://cloanto.com/ https://cloanto.com/
- fractallyte 7y ago
  Michael Battilana (Cloanto) is to Commodore as Brewster Kahle is to Archive.org He's genuinely tried to preserve the history of Commodore (Amiga in particular) and make it available to everyone, in Cloanto's Amiga Forever and C64 Forever packages. I understand there's no profit from this; it's all fan work under the guise of commercial offerings. If Cloanto is holding on to the copyrights, it's for good reason. Following the demise of Commodore, there has been non-stop conflict between subsequent owners of various parts of the IP and copyrights. At least Cloanto is committed to preserving the Commodore legacy - the company has been around since the 80s, and has produced some flagship Amiga software.
  - snvzz 7y ago
    I can't comprehend why you're justifying Cloanto's attitude in keeping valuable historical source code away from archivists, thus endangering it. (AmigaOS in particular)
  - blue1 7y ago
    Why, then, there is a widespread hostility towards Cloanto in all Amiga boards, /r/amiga etc.?
    - philpem 7y ago
      For the same reason there's hostility (aka "drama") in all communities. An unwillingness to listen, a rush to get an adrenaline hit from posting hate, an anger over not being the one with your name in lights. (having helped run fan conventions, this is something I'm sadly very familiar with)

98 points by reidrac 7y ago

Is there not a good reference for doing a clean room implementation? These guys seem to be trying to figure it out from base principals and are struggling. Certainly someone must have written a book or something by now. Maybe start here: http://www.uta.edu/cse/levine/fall99/cse5324/cr/clean/page1.html http://www.uta.edu/cse/levine/fall99/cse5324/cr/clean/page1....

tom_ 7y ago
I dunno, man? I think their justification sounds pretty sensible: approx 100% of qualified C64 developers will have spent a good deal of time poring over the original code, so there's a very good chance that any supposedly clean room implementation will, legally speaking, be anything but. Hence all the extra palaver. (The only questionaible thing in my view is why they aren't using 64tass.)

monocasa 7y ago

Did they get a lawyer to look at their reasoning? It reads like what you get when software guys try to make "common sense" reasoning about IP law.

incompatible 7y ago
Yeah, their argument that an "implied right" to copyrighted materials arises just because it's widely infringed and the copyright holder hasn't sued anybody, seems fishy. I think they are confused with trademarks. Any citations of actual legal cases would be welcome. This is only an aside to their actual reverse engineering work, but still.
- phkahler 7y ago
  That whole section should just be deleted as IANAL speculation. If they're not sure about it then it's just noise. If they were sure about it, the project would be redundant.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

orionblastar 7y ago

They can be used in emulators and replaced on C64 boards that had the ROMs burn out. This reminds me of the Amiga ROM Kickstart that AROS made for Amiga 68K units o run AROS in emulators or real Amigas. I see a lot of projects like this in Europe. I guess their IP laws are slacker than the USA?

jacobush 7y ago
Maybe the US devs are slacker... haha, no I expect them to be busy making money hand over fist.

thought_alarm 7y ago

According to this [0] reddit post, the copyright on the C64 ROMs is currently owned by a company called Cloanto [1], whose premier product is a COM/ActiveX currency converter, like it's 1999. Anyway, it sounds like a fun project. [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/c64/comments/6d8ss0/who_owns_the_commodore_trademark_now/ https://www.reddit.com/r/c64/comments/6d8ss0/who_owns_the_co... [1] https://cloanto.com/ https://cloanto.com/

fractallyte 7y ago
Michael Battilana (Cloanto) is to Commodore as Brewster Kahle is to Archive.org He's genuinely tried to preserve the history of Commodore (Amiga in particular) and make it available to everyone, in Cloanto's Amiga Forever and C64 Forever packages. I understand there's no profit from this; it's all fan work under the guise of commercial offerings. If Cloanto is holding on to the copyrights, it's for good reason. Following the demise of Commodore, there has been non-stop conflict between subsequent owners of various parts of the IP and copyrights. At least Cloanto is committed to preserving the Commodore legacy - the company has been around since the 80s, and has produced some flagship Amiga software.
- snvzz 7y ago
  I can't comprehend why you're justifying Cloanto's attitude in keeping valuable historical source code away from archivists, thus endangering it. (AmigaOS in particular)
- blue1 7y ago
  Why, then, there is a widespread hostility towards Cloanto in all Amiga boards, /r/amiga etc.?
  - philpem 7y ago
    For the same reason there's hostility (aka "drama") in all communities. An unwillingness to listen, a rush to get an adrenaline hit from posting hate, an anger over not being the one with your name in lights. (having helped run fan conventions, this is something I'm sadly very familiar with)