4 ms·

I see the word "empire" bandied about when discussing this subject a lot, and I'm never really sure what people mean by it. I mean, sure on the face of it you'r

I see the word "empire" bandied about when discussing this subject a lot, and I'm never really sure what people mean by it. I mean, sure on the face of it you're correct, an "empire" according to various dictionaries is just an expansive amount of territory under a single rule, but it doesn't seem like that's what anyone really means when they say it. Otherwise, why aren't most countries empires? They have an "expansive" amount of territory by some definition. Or what about the EU? China? Russia? What seems especially confusing to me is that "empire" has a very specific negative connotation but it's rarely out and out said what people who say "empire" actually think the US's crime is. I could imagine it to mean the way we treated Native Americans, but it doesn't seem like that's actually what's being talked about most of the time. Furthermore if we're talking just about global economic and cultural influence, that's voluntary(?) so the connotation meant doesn't work there. What's the real deal here? What are we actually talking about? And just to be clear I'm very much against US interventionalism but that doesn't constitute an empire... Or does it? Also, openly destroying people for disagreeing with the "American Way Of Life" isn't something I've seen before. Are your referring to the Cold War, or stuff with the Middle East?

hutzlibu 7y ago
The way I understand empire is a state which tries to expand its influence and dominate wherever it can. And yes, for people being dominated by it, it has a negative connotation. Different from a democracy and federation. Because a democracy fighting for freedom and ... well democracy, would not do this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... "During the Cold War in particular, the U.S. government secretly supported military coups that overthrew democratically elected governments in Iran in 1953, Guatemala in 1954, the Congo in 1960, Brazil in 1964 and Chile in 1973. " This is what empires do. Dominating their way onto weaker states, by all means. Sanctions, assasinations, supporting, supressing, blocking, sending weapons and ultimatively troops. There is a reason why there are US bases all over the world. And yes, sometimes that can be a net gain, like in Nazi Germany, but usually all the human rights democracy talk is just facade. And also yes, smaller states do the same, act like empires, but the US is by far the largest Power since the USSR vanished. But china is on the rise and europe likes to be an empire as well ... but for example with europe I have the hope that we tend to stay more a democratic federation and not go down that path as well.
- logicprog 7y ago
  Okay that does make sense. I think that there are good and bad sides to the US' actions though, and the good actions are not limited to WW2. It's important to note that, at some size any nation becomes an "empire" by that definition-- it really isn't possible to not do that, and survive. Beyond a certain amount influence, there will be constant threats to security and prosperity and people trying to harm you, and rightly or not the solution any government would look to for these problems is violence. Because government is fundamentally based on force, inside and out (government is enforced at the point of a gun). So to say that the US's government is uniquely terrible is not really true. Also for the most part the actions of the US are in service to what they say they are in service to. On this I disagree with you slightly: the values US talks about are usually not a facade. And the times that they are, those become highly contentious actions, even in the US, whereas in other countries I don't know that they would be-- so to act as if the US's people are uniquely terrible is again very disingenuous. In the example that you quote, those actions were clearly in the interest of toppling an even greater evil. I don't think this rationale is morally right, but you could say we went with the "lesser evil". So I agree with you, that the US does act like an empire, and that other countries would too if they had to or could. However I see a lot of specific condemnations of the US as if it were unique. That's more what I was responding to. I don't think either of us think that's right.
  - hutzlibu 7y ago
    "So to say that the US's government is uniquely terrible is not really true." I never said that. What is unique with the US is just that you are the biggest power today. That's why so much of the negativity is focused on your empire. If china would be dominating, it would be them. (and I know their human right standards are much lower) But with this I disagree very much: "It's important to note that, at some size any nation becomes an "empire" by that definition-- it really isn't possible to not do that, and survive" If you are powerful, because your people work hard and efficient, why do you have to invade other countries? "Beyond a certain amount influence, there will be constant threats to security and prosperity" Because they are a threat to your prosperity, because they don't sell you their ressources at a price you want? Note that many people think, that terrorism is the answer because their land was exploited.

hutzlibu 7y ago

The way I understand empire is a state which tries to expand its influence and dominate wherever it can. And yes, for people being dominated by it, it has a negative connotation. Different from a democracy and federation. Because a democracy fighting for freedom and ... well democracy, would not do this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in... "During the Cold War in particular, the U.S. government secretly supported military coups that overthrew democratically elected governments in Iran in 1953, Guatemala in 1954, the Congo in 1960, Brazil in 1964 and Chile in 1973. " This is what empires do. Dominating their way onto weaker states, by all means. Sanctions, assasinations, supporting, supressing, blocking, sending weapons and ultimatively troops. There is a reason why there are US bases all over the world. And yes, sometimes that can be a net gain, like in Nazi Germany, but usually all the human rights democracy talk is just facade. And also yes, smaller states do the same, act like empires, but the US is by far the largest Power since the USSR vanished. But china is on the rise and europe likes to be an empire as well ... but for example with europe I have the hope that we tend to stay more a democratic federation and not go down that path as well.

logicprog 7y ago
Okay that does make sense. I think that there are good and bad sides to the US' actions though, and the good actions are not limited to WW2. It's important to note that, at some size any nation becomes an "empire" by that definition-- it really isn't possible to not do that, and survive. Beyond a certain amount influence, there will be constant threats to security and prosperity and people trying to harm you, and rightly or not the solution any government would look to for these problems is violence. Because government is fundamentally based on force, inside and out (government is enforced at the point of a gun). So to say that the US's government is uniquely terrible is not really true. Also for the most part the actions of the US are in service to what they say they are in service to. On this I disagree with you slightly: the values US talks about are usually not a facade. And the times that they are, those become highly contentious actions, even in the US, whereas in other countries I don't know that they would be-- so to act as if the US's people are uniquely terrible is again very disingenuous. In the example that you quote, those actions were clearly in the interest of toppling an even greater evil. I don't think this rationale is morally right, but you could say we went with the "lesser evil". So I agree with you, that the US does act like an empire, and that other countries would too if they had to or could. However I see a lot of specific condemnations of the US as if it were unique. That's more what I was responding to. I don't think either of us think that's right.
- hutzlibu 7y ago
  "So to say that the US's government is uniquely terrible is not really true." I never said that. What is unique with the US is just that you are the biggest power today. That's why so much of the negativity is focused on your empire. If china would be dominating, it would be them. (and I know their human right standards are much lower) But with this I disagree very much: "It's important to note that, at some size any nation becomes an "empire" by that definition-- it really isn't possible to not do that, and survive" If you are powerful, because your people work hard and efficient, why do you have to invade other countries? "Beyond a certain amount influence, there will be constant threats to security and prosperity" Because they are a threat to your prosperity, because they don't sell you their ressources at a price you want? Note that many people think, that terrorism is the answer because their land was exploited.