6 ms·

It’s an interesting idea but I don’t think it makes much sense. Society changes a lot during that time so what could such an institution be based on? Closest i

It’s an interesting idea but I don’t think it makes much sense. Society changes a lot during that time so what could such an institution be based on? Closest is probably religion but considering that most religions are based on the understanding of the world at time of their creation they would either be obsolete after 10000 years or they would have to preserve the status quo and limit scientific progress. The Catholics tried that for a while but could hold progress only for a few hundred years.

toasterlovin 7y ago
I've wondered if a religion that specifically carved out space for areas of knowledge that are expected to mutate would be viable.
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  this will be difficult. Usually discoveries in one area will also have impact in other areas.
tathougies 7y ago
> The Catholics tried that for a while but could hold progress only for a few hundred years. The Catholic church is more vibrant than ever, and still holds substantial sway over many many people. Most modern organizations are unable to hold as much sway over members as the Catholic church does. If anything, the church is a case study in how to make an organization relevant over the course of millennia. Your point on scientific progress is especially obtuse, given that the entire reason for the study of science in the West was at the behest of Christianity. I can't think of any time the church sought limiting scientific progress as an end unto itself.
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  It's true that the Church supported science but there are plenty of examples where it didn't like the results and tried to bury them.
  - gen220 7y ago
    From my understanding, it's more that the personalities of certain powerful individuals in the Church didn't rub well with the personalities of certain influential citizen-scientists (@Galileo, principally), and the former individuals abused their power to torment the latter. The actual results were much less important to the people involved than the prestige of "being right". For context, these inquisitions happened at a time when the printing press was democratizing ownership of authoritative information (i.e. the Church) – not too dissimilar to today, where the web's information is upending traditional news sources. The inquisitions were a reaction to a perceived loss of power. From that POV, it was less an ideological, Church vs Science thing (although this conflict is real today, though it seemed to be less real in the past), and more a butting of egos. Many people today experience zero dissonance between their religion and their scientific beliefs, and this observation is an old one (see the writings of any number of religious scientists throughout history). Anyways, just my 2¢! :)
    - maxxxxx 7y ago
      Yes it was a power play. My point is that a 10000 year organization will have a tendency to do so because otherwise progress will quickly make it obsolete. It needs to control progress so it has time to adapt.
  - cat199 7y ago
    The extent to which this is true depends on which "Catholic Church" you mean.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicanism and, many in these would argue that the extent of the roman repression of the renaissance was a direct side effect of the unique theological positions of the roman church.. Also, the same thing could be said to one degree or another for science which is not politically acceptable in the modern context..
    - tathougies 7y ago
- rockinghigh 7y ago
  You don't need to look very far to see the Church limiting scientific progress. The Catholic Church banned many scientific books. One of these lists of banned books was the Index Librorum Prohibitorum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum). For 100 years it included books that advocated for heliocentrism. The pope Paul V himself explicitly asked Galileo to abandon the idea of heliocentrism.
  - tathougies 7y ago
    Saying 'for 100 years, it advocated books that advocated for heliocentrism' means very little for an organization that is 2000 years old, and for which, for 1500 years of its existence, geocentrism was considered the correct, scientific viewpoint. Heliocentrism was first advocated for by Copernicus who was a devout Catholic, possibly even a priest. Other scientists before Galileo advocated for it, and it was a popular enough opinion at Galileo's time, held by other scientists as well. Galileo was arrested (completely unfairly, in my opinion) for disobeying the pope. This places the case squarely under my exception of those arrested for unrelated, tenuously related, or personal reasons.
- max76 7y ago
  > The Catholic church is more vibrant than ever, and still holds substantial sway over many many people. Most modern organizations are unable to hold as much sway over members as the Catholic church does. If anything, the church is a case study in how to make an organization relevant over the course of millennia. This is very true. The Catholic church is not going anywhere soon. Worldwide membership is 1.2 billion people (self reported numbers). The Catholic church is one of the largest land owners in the world, with 177 million acres worldwide. The catholic church has one the largest art and antique collections in the world. The Catholic church has a large impact on worldwide culture and politics. It's never had a larger worldwide footprint than today and it has so many assets and members that it would take centuries of decline to go away. Sure, christianity as a whole has declined in Europe. That's just one continent. Let's not ignore the fact that 16% of the world population is Catholic.
- izzydata 7y ago
  It doesn't seem like it is much of a secret how they manage this. You just have to make sure it is part of your institution to force it upon the minds of your newborn children. You now have a possibly infinite self replicating virus.
  - tathougies 7y ago
    If that were true how come many famous scientists were catholic and went to catholic school? If the church is impressing upon the minds of the young the urge to not pursue science and rationality how could it produce so many (faithful) scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, etc
    - izzydata 7y ago
      I don't believe I implied those things were mutually exclusive. The only thing that matters is that it perpetuates itself.
xamuel 7y ago
Whether he was supernatural or not, Jesus of Nazareth did launch a crucial institution which plays a huge role in our everyday lives. Namely: the institution of "not following tyrants who proclaim themselves to be gods". In Jesus's day, world leaders did proclaim themselves gods, and used sword and pen to enforce it. Praise Jesus that doesn't happen any more. The reason it doesn't happen any more is because no amount of gunpowder or brainwashing can sway a born-again Christian to bow down and worship a worldly king. Once Christianity spreads and takes root in an area, it becomes impossible for the rulers of that area to enforce their own godhood. Caesar can no longer make himself god when a sizable portion of the population believes the Gospel of Jesus. The kingdom of heaven is near.
Shorel 7y ago
You are thinking only about the Abrahamic religions. In fact, only about one of them. I can imagine a very scientific Buddhist society.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

toasterlovin 7y ago

I've wondered if a religion that specifically carved out space for areas of knowledge that are expected to mutate would be viable.

maxxxxx 7y ago
this will be difficult. Usually discoveries in one area will also have impact in other areas.

tathougies 7y ago

> The Catholics tried that for a while but could hold progress only for a few hundred years. The Catholic church is more vibrant than ever, and still holds substantial sway over many many people. Most modern organizations are unable to hold as much sway over members as the Catholic church does. If anything, the church is a case study in how to make an organization relevant over the course of millennia. Your point on scientific progress is especially obtuse, given that the entire reason for the study of science in the West was at the behest of Christianity. I can't think of any time the church sought limiting scientific progress as an end unto itself.

maxxxxx 7y ago
It's true that the Church supported science but there are plenty of examples where it didn't like the results and tried to bury them.
- gen220 7y ago
  From my understanding, it's more that the personalities of certain powerful individuals in the Church didn't rub well with the personalities of certain influential citizen-scientists (@Galileo, principally), and the former individuals abused their power to torment the latter. The actual results were much less important to the people involved than the prestige of "being right". For context, these inquisitions happened at a time when the printing press was democratizing ownership of authoritative information (i.e. the Church) – not too dissimilar to today, where the web's information is upending traditional news sources. The inquisitions were a reaction to a perceived loss of power. From that POV, it was less an ideological, Church vs Science thing (although this conflict is real today, though it seemed to be less real in the past), and more a butting of egos. Many people today experience zero dissonance between their religion and their scientific beliefs, and this observation is an old one (see the writings of any number of religious scientists throughout history). Anyways, just my 2¢! :)
  - maxxxxx 7y ago
    Yes it was a power play. My point is that a 10000 year organization will have a tendency to do so because otherwise progress will quickly make it obsolete. It needs to control progress so it has time to adapt.
- cat199 7y ago
  The extent to which this is true depends on which "Catholic Church" you mean.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_Church https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oriental_Orthodoxy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicanism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglicanism and, many in these would argue that the extent of the roman repression of the renaissance was a direct side effect of the unique theological positions of the roman church.. Also, the same thing could be said to one degree or another for science which is not politically acceptable in the modern context..
  - tathougies 7y ago
rockinghigh 7y ago
You don't need to look very far to see the Church limiting scientific progress. The Catholic Church banned many scientific books. One of these lists of banned books was the Index Librorum Prohibitorum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_Librorum_Prohibitorum). For 100 years it included books that advocated for heliocentrism. The pope Paul V himself explicitly asked Galileo to abandon the idea of heliocentrism.
- tathougies 7y ago
  Saying 'for 100 years, it advocated books that advocated for heliocentrism' means very little for an organization that is 2000 years old, and for which, for 1500 years of its existence, geocentrism was considered the correct, scientific viewpoint. Heliocentrism was first advocated for by Copernicus who was a devout Catholic, possibly even a priest. Other scientists before Galileo advocated for it, and it was a popular enough opinion at Galileo's time, held by other scientists as well. Galileo was arrested (completely unfairly, in my opinion) for disobeying the pope. This places the case squarely under my exception of those arrested for unrelated, tenuously related, or personal reasons.
max76 7y ago
> The Catholic church is more vibrant than ever, and still holds substantial sway over many many people. Most modern organizations are unable to hold as much sway over members as the Catholic church does. If anything, the church is a case study in how to make an organization relevant over the course of millennia. This is very true. The Catholic church is not going anywhere soon. Worldwide membership is 1.2 billion people (self reported numbers). The Catholic church is one of the largest land owners in the world, with 177 million acres worldwide. The catholic church has one the largest art and antique collections in the world. The Catholic church has a large impact on worldwide culture and politics. It's never had a larger worldwide footprint than today and it has so many assets and members that it would take centuries of decline to go away. Sure, christianity as a whole has declined in Europe. That's just one continent. Let's not ignore the fact that 16% of the world population is Catholic.
izzydata 7y ago
It doesn't seem like it is much of a secret how they manage this. You just have to make sure it is part of your institution to force it upon the minds of your newborn children. You now have a possibly infinite self replicating virus.
- tathougies 7y ago
  If that were true how come many famous scientists were catholic and went to catholic school? If the church is impressing upon the minds of the young the urge to not pursue science and rationality how could it produce so many (faithful) scientists, mathematicians, philosophers, etc
  - izzydata 7y ago
    I don't believe I implied those things were mutually exclusive. The only thing that matters is that it perpetuates itself.

xamuel 7y ago

Whether he was supernatural or not, Jesus of Nazareth did launch a crucial institution which plays a huge role in our everyday lives. Namely: the institution of "not following tyrants who proclaim themselves to be gods". In Jesus's day, world leaders did proclaim themselves gods, and used sword and pen to enforce it. Praise Jesus that doesn't happen any more. The reason it doesn't happen any more is because no amount of gunpowder or brainwashing can sway a born-again Christian to bow down and worship a worldly king. Once Christianity spreads and takes root in an area, it becomes impossible for the rulers of that area to enforce their own godhood. Caesar can no longer make himself god when a sizable portion of the population believes the Gospel of Jesus. The kingdom of heaven is near.

Shorel 7y ago

You are thinking only about the Abrahamic religions. In fact, only about one of them. I can imagine a very scientific Buddhist society.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]