7 ms·

Interesting (and great that the bigger manufacturers are starting to come through with their electric offerings) but the price:range ratio doesn't seem great co

by mft_ 7y ago

Interesting (and great that the bigger manufacturers are starting to come through with their electric offerings) but the price:range ratio doesn't seem great compared to the Tesla model 3? It's hard to be objective with all of the strongly pro- and anti-Tesla nonsense flying around, but I've had a sneaking suspicion for a while that once the market matures a little (with eg Audi, VW, Porsche all offering their first-gen EVs) Tesla's offerings will be seen as more revolutionary (or at least, taken less for granted) than they currently are...

andrewmunsell 7y ago
All you really have to do is look at the current e-Tron and iPace efficiency numbers-- the Model X, which is a heavier vehicle with a smaller battery, goes farther.
- Fins 7y ago
  Audi and Jaguar are also luxury cars, and X isn't.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - sabareesh 7y ago
    Ok how do you define luxury car.
    - Fins 7y ago
      Quality, amenities, service experience, stuff like that. Not making things inherently more dangerous is nice, too.
      - sabareesh 7y ago
        Model 3 is safest production car to the date, as most of the car components are integrated problems can be fixed remotely but still when you have to get to Service Center Tesla is notably improving it. Quality of Tesla drive train, battery, efficiency, supercharger network, software ecosystem, Autopilot (which is best driver assist system available now) .
        Fins 7y ago
        This would have been funny, if you weren't actually being serious. That way it's just sad.
        zaroth 7y ago
        Please don’t do this here.
        Fins 7y ago
        Sorry, but what should one do with posts that are just blatantly false?
        zaroth 7y ago
        Citations, not personal attacks. For example, as to the claim it is the safest production car ever made, you could cite NHTSA finding the Tesla Model 3 had the best combined VSS (Vehicle Safety Score) ever tested. [1] Regarding remote maintenance, the latest firmware does add the capability to notify the operator of an issue and pre-orders parts to your home service center. [2] I can't speak to drive train specifically, although Tesla has stated they design and build to a 1,000,000 mile standard. Longevity and low maintenance cost is a huge factor for Tesla buyers. A Model S driven for Tesloop logged over 400,000 miles and ended up with just a $0.05/mile maintenance cost. [3] Battery reliability is much higher than everyone expected, and owner surveys of older Model S batteries show 90%+ capacity after 160,000 miles. [4] Efficiency is easy to demonstrate that Tesla is way ahead of the pack. In my Tesla Model 3 AWD with 19" rims I get ~220Wh/mile, and the RWD version with 18" rims is more efficient than that. The only more efficient EV I know of is the Ionic, which has a 28kWh battery and 3,100 lbs curb weight allows it to beat the Tesla Model 3 at 50kWh battery and 3,552 lbs by 4% in terms of mpge, but has 100 miles less range. The Tesla Supercharger network is one of a kind. The V3 Supercharger update brings the fastest production charging in the world. The software ecosystem, presumably meaning OTA updates, have brought innumerable software features, and even hardware performance upgrades (braking and acceleration) in the last several months. My son also really appreciates the new Atari games that keep coming out. You can debate whether you think AutoPilot is the best driver assistance package available, but it is far from "blatantly false". AutoPilot takes me to work and back every day with very little manual input. It makes a heavy traffic commute totally stress free. I do look out the window while I have it engaged though, not watching a movie on my phone or tablet. [1] - https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=NHTSA-2017-0037-0041&attachmentNumber=1&contentType=excel12book https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=NHTSA... [2] - https://electrek.co/2019/05/06/tesla-diagnose-pre-order-parts-service/ https://electrek.co/2019/05/06/tesla-diagnose-pre-order-part... [3] - https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2019/2/6/tesloops-high-mileage-teslas https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2019/2/6/tesloops-high-mileage-... [4] - https://cleantechnica.com/2018/04/16/tesla-batteries-have-90-capacity-after-160000-miles-may-last-for-500000-miles/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/04/16/tesla-batteries-have-90...
  - rasz 7y ago
    nothing says luxury like Jaguars laggy infotainment ala $30 android tablet
    - Fins 7y ago
      Jaguar's old supplier of electric parts was known as "the prince of darkness"... I'll take laggy infotainment over a system where you have to use touchscreen to adjust temperature any day, though. Nothing says "a responsible car maker" like having autopilot drive you into a firetruck while you're fiddling with the touchscreen.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- new_realist 7y ago
  The Model X also looks like it was shit out of a dinosaur. Looks matter, even if range suffers.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
nickbarnwell 7y ago
The least expensive Model 3 in Germany is 57.900 EUR with 540km (wltp cycle) of range – part of this is that they've only been exporting the high margin long-range AWD models. The more expensive "First Edition" id.3 will have approx 425km of range for 35.000 > x < 40.000EUR. Even taking the top end of that range, it seems the $:km ratio is in favour of the VW. If the First Edition battery is equal in size to the yet-to-be-released 58kWh battery, it seems the efficiency is at least comparable to the M3 as well. Plus, you probably get a better interior. Certainly a better built one…
- adamvalve 7y ago
  If the interior is anything like my Tiguan... I would greatly prefer my Model 3 any day. I don't think the ID3 is going to come with a premium interior... haven't seen any photos of it so I could be wrong.
  - Shivetya 7y ago
    Some pictures captured of the Seat version of the ID.3 match up very well with glimpses of the ID.3 interior. https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/seat/100354/new-seat-el-born-concept-previews-all-electric-family-car-at-geneva https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/seat/100354/new-seat-el-born-c...
    - ricardobeat 7y ago
      I hope this is not it. Looks cramped like an economy car, with the massive center console and fat door covers.
  - ilikehurdles 7y ago
    I might be mistaken, but it's a 20k euro price difference isn't it? I'd hope the Model 3 has at least a nicer interior to justify the cost.
    - vinay427 7y ago
      You may have missed the context in the comment they replied to. I don't believe anything in the comment you replied to contradicts what you said. > Plus, you probably get a better interior. Certainly a better built one…
nuriaion 7y ago
Also i would assume that the non-Tesla offerings will be cheaper. What i saw about the automobile industry ist that they are very good in building factories/supply chain's where they can produce as cheap as possible. The setup of such a supply chain takes years but when it's there i assume that the prices will be lower than Tesla's. (Also so far i know Tesla need's still a relativ big amout of work hours per car, 60h compare to 30h industry standard)
martythemaniak 7y ago
My opinion is that the best way to cut through all the opinionating is to actually buy an EV. For most people, buying an EV is still a far-away, abstract notion so I wouldn't put much stock in their opinions until they spend the money.
pbreit 7y ago
I think Tesla was smart to appeal initially to the European automotive fans. I've bought German all my life but my next car will be a Tesla. Think I think the made-in-America customers will come around. I think the Asian car fans will be a little trickier because of the price/quality proposition. Although it seems like the Prius fans are already coming over.
- threeseed 7y ago
  Might want to look into the service situation before buying a Tesla. Seems to be an area that never gets properly talked about and we've seen examples posted of people waiting up to a year for repairs. That's completely unacceptable.
m463 7y ago
I think what people are going to find out is that teslas last a lot longer. I've seen tesla model s cars with 300,000 miles on the odometer. You have to think in terms of range * cycles.

by mft_ 7y ago

andrewmunsell 7y ago

All you really have to do is look at the current e-Tron and iPace efficiency numbers-- the Model X, which is a heavier vehicle with a smaller battery, goes farther.

Fins 7y ago
Audi and Jaguar are also luxury cars, and X isn't.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- sabareesh 7y ago
  Ok how do you define luxury car.
  - Fins 7y ago
    Quality, amenities, service experience, stuff like that. Not making things inherently more dangerous is nice, too.
    - sabareesh 7y ago
      Model 3 is safest production car to the date, as most of the car components are integrated problems can be fixed remotely but still when you have to get to Service Center Tesla is notably improving it. Quality of Tesla drive train, battery, efficiency, supercharger network, software ecosystem, Autopilot (which is best driver assist system available now) .
      - Fins 7y ago
        This would have been funny, if you weren't actually being serious. That way it's just sad.
        zaroth 7y ago
        Please don’t do this here.
        Fins 7y ago
        Sorry, but what should one do with posts that are just blatantly false?
        zaroth 7y ago
        Citations, not personal attacks. For example, as to the claim it is the safest production car ever made, you could cite NHTSA finding the Tesla Model 3 had the best combined VSS (Vehicle Safety Score) ever tested. [1] Regarding remote maintenance, the latest firmware does add the capability to notify the operator of an issue and pre-orders parts to your home service center. [2] I can't speak to drive train specifically, although Tesla has stated they design and build to a 1,000,000 mile standard. Longevity and low maintenance cost is a huge factor for Tesla buyers. A Model S driven for Tesloop logged over 400,000 miles and ended up with just a $0.05/mile maintenance cost. [3] Battery reliability is much higher than everyone expected, and owner surveys of older Model S batteries show 90%+ capacity after 160,000 miles. [4] Efficiency is easy to demonstrate that Tesla is way ahead of the pack. In my Tesla Model 3 AWD with 19" rims I get ~220Wh/mile, and the RWD version with 18" rims is more efficient than that. The only more efficient EV I know of is the Ionic, which has a 28kWh battery and 3,100 lbs curb weight allows it to beat the Tesla Model 3 at 50kWh battery and 3,552 lbs by 4% in terms of mpge, but has 100 miles less range. The Tesla Supercharger network is one of a kind. The V3 Supercharger update brings the fastest production charging in the world. The software ecosystem, presumably meaning OTA updates, have brought innumerable software features, and even hardware performance upgrades (braking and acceleration) in the last several months. My son also really appreciates the new Atari games that keep coming out. You can debate whether you think AutoPilot is the best driver assistance package available, but it is far from "blatantly false". AutoPilot takes me to work and back every day with very little manual input. It makes a heavy traffic commute totally stress free. I do look out the window while I have it engaged though, not watching a movie on my phone or tablet. [1] - https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=NHTSA-2017-0037-0041&attachmentNumber=1&contentType=excel12book https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=NHTSA... [2] - https://electrek.co/2019/05/06/tesla-diagnose-pre-order-parts-service/ https://electrek.co/2019/05/06/tesla-diagnose-pre-order-part... [3] - https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2019/2/6/tesloops-high-mileage-teslas https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2019/2/6/tesloops-high-mileage-... [4] - https://cleantechnica.com/2018/04/16/tesla-batteries-have-90-capacity-after-160000-miles-may-last-for-500000-miles/ https://cleantechnica.com/2018/04/16/tesla-batteries-have-90...
- rasz 7y ago
  nothing says luxury like Jaguars laggy infotainment ala $30 android tablet
  - Fins 7y ago
    Jaguar's old supplier of electric parts was known as "the prince of darkness"... I'll take laggy infotainment over a system where you have to use touchscreen to adjust temperature any day, though. Nothing says "a responsible car maker" like having autopilot drive you into a firetruck while you're fiddling with the touchscreen.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
new_realist 7y ago
The Model X also looks like it was shit out of a dinosaur. Looks matter, even if range suffers.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

nickbarnwell 7y ago

The least expensive Model 3 in Germany is 57.900 EUR with 540km (wltp cycle) of range – part of this is that they've only been exporting the high margin long-range AWD models. The more expensive "First Edition" id.3 will have approx 425km of range for 35.000 > x < 40.000EUR. Even taking the top end of that range, it seems the $:km ratio is in favour of the VW. If the First Edition battery is equal in size to the yet-to-be-released 58kWh battery, it seems the efficiency is at least comparable to the M3 as well. Plus, you probably get a better interior. Certainly a better built one…

adamvalve 7y ago
If the interior is anything like my Tiguan... I would greatly prefer my Model 3 any day. I don't think the ID3 is going to come with a premium interior... haven't seen any photos of it so I could be wrong.
- Shivetya 7y ago
  Some pictures captured of the Seat version of the ID.3 match up very well with glimpses of the ID.3 interior. https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/seat/100354/new-seat-el-born-concept-previews-all-electric-family-car-at-geneva https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/seat/100354/new-seat-el-born-c...
  - ricardobeat 7y ago
    I hope this is not it. Looks cramped like an economy car, with the massive center console and fat door covers.
- ilikehurdles 7y ago
  I might be mistaken, but it's a 20k euro price difference isn't it? I'd hope the Model 3 has at least a nicer interior to justify the cost.
  - vinay427 7y ago
    You may have missed the context in the comment they replied to. I don't believe anything in the comment you replied to contradicts what you said. > Plus, you probably get a better interior. Certainly a better built one…

nuriaion 7y ago

Also i would assume that the non-Tesla offerings will be cheaper. What i saw about the automobile industry ist that they are very good in building factories/supply chain's where they can produce as cheap as possible. The setup of such a supply chain takes years but when it's there i assume that the prices will be lower than Tesla's. (Also so far i know Tesla need's still a relativ big amout of work hours per car, 60h compare to 30h industry standard)

martythemaniak 7y ago

My opinion is that the best way to cut through all the opinionating is to actually buy an EV. For most people, buying an EV is still a far-away, abstract notion so I wouldn't put much stock in their opinions until they spend the money.

pbreit 7y ago

I think Tesla was smart to appeal initially to the European automotive fans. I've bought German all my life but my next car will be a Tesla. Think I think the made-in-America customers will come around. I think the Asian car fans will be a little trickier because of the price/quality proposition. Although it seems like the Prius fans are already coming over.

threeseed 7y ago
Might want to look into the service situation before buying a Tesla. Seems to be an area that never gets properly talked about and we've seen examples posted of people waiting up to a year for repairs. That's completely unacceptable.

m463 7y ago

I think what people are going to find out is that teslas last a lot longer. I've seen tesla model s cars with 300,000 miles on the odometer. You have to think in terms of range * cycles.