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While we're discussing Facebook and anticompetitive practices, I'd like to bring the effects of FANG/Unicorns and their current compensation. I think we are se

While we're discussing Facebook and anticompetitive practices, I'd like to bring the effects of FANG/Unicorns and their current compensation. I think we are seeing a drop in people leaving established tech to startups, but I think most of this is due to the _ludicrous_ amount of money an engineer/PM can make being a 9-5er at one FB/G. Engineers who meet expectations and get promoted at the minimum allowed rate can be an E5 engineer at facebook within 5 years of graduation where there's a median income of ~$300k. Engineers who are good can get promoted much faster/further than that and make absurd amounts of money. With Level 1 directors at FB making over a $1M a year. It really doesn't make sense for an individual engineer to ever join a small startup nowadays. Being the founder of a successful startup now still makes sense, but considering that much of the low-hanging fruit of the mobile/internet era has been picked, I think being a founder requires more domain/technological expertise than it did in the era when our current unicorns were born. I like the state of things as someone making good money relatively stress free at a FANG, but I hope a new fundamental technology wave comes soon and creates opportunity for a whole new set of companies, reigniting the startup scene's energy.

xiaolingxiao 7y ago
what's the median age (in your estimation) of a level I director at FB? and what's "absurd amount of money" for good engineers? Something like 400 - 600K?
- jmastrangelo 7y ago
  From my (likely poor) estimation, an internally promoted director likely has ~10 - 15 years of experience, and externally hired directors can range from that little to much much more. These are usually very talented people who could be C-suite executives at smaller companies so their compensation makes sense. When I said "absurd amount of money" it was more of a rhetorical device, I don't actually think that its unreasonable, and yeah I meant ~500k or so. Considering the value good engineering and leadership bring to a tech company, this pay makes perfect sense, hell it still may be lowballing the value they generate for the organization. But it is still a high amount of money for a 9-5 individual contribution job compared with other industries. I'm more making the point that tech used to pay middlingly compared to other professional jobs (doctor/lawyer etc.), and Mechanical/Electrical engineering for the most part still do pay middlingly. I think this encouraged the talented to strike out for startups far more often as the opportunity cost of doing so was lower, especially in times with new technology waves where there was a lot more "low hanging fruit". I'm not saying the pay is anticompetitive or a bad thing, I'm merely commenting on a trend that I've seen where startups make less and less sense for talented individual engineers and I wonder how that will affect the tech scene in the next decade.
  - mtberatwork 7y ago
    > I'm more making the point that tech used to pay middlingly compared to other professional jobs (doctor/lawyer etc.) Outside of SV, how is it not "middlingly"? Where can you make $500k+/year in tech working at some corporation??
    - jmastrangelo 7y ago
      Outside SV, Seattle and NYC it pretty much does still pay middlingly. But these same places that don't compete with SV on pay also often don't have an many resources for the startup oriented as well.
hodgesrm 7y ago
It's not clear that many of the people you are describing would have joined a startup anyway. There's big difference in the personalities who thrive in startups and those that thrive in large bureaucracies. An alternative view is that Silicon Valley and other tech centers are increasing dominated by the latter type of person.
- jmastrangelo 7y ago
  > An alternative view is that Silicon Valley and other tech centers are increasing dominated by the latter type of person. Definitely possible and likely true to some extent. Smart people who don't have a particular passion and may have chosen finance/consulting in another era are considering tech. Though I do see a lot of people move in and out of being high leadership at smaller companies/startups and into manager/director positions at FANG.
- codr7 7y ago
  I'd go further and note that online software discussions in general seem increasingly dominated by complete beginners who couldn't care less about code except as a stepping stone to money and fame. How this is all going to lead anywhere worth going is anyone's guess...
  - jmastrangelo 7y ago
    I think the change will have two effects. The first is the cynical one, where tons of unqualified people come into the field just for the money, write poor software, and probably don't actually enjoy their lives that much because they're not good at what they do and lack that internal satisfaction. But, a more positive change is that there will be some high-impact multitalented genius individuals that choose to pursue tech instead of high finance or politics or something like that. Jeff Bezos left a hedge fund to start Amazon. Now he may be a ruthless son-of-a-bitch when it comes to competing, but for consumers the positive impact has been enormous. He's likely done far more good than he would have being a lifer at D.E. Shaw.
sgustard 7y ago
At least you're paid well to contribute to the destruction of privacy, fair elections and human rights.

xiaolingxiao 7y ago

what's the median age (in your estimation) of a level I director at FB? and what's "absurd amount of money" for good engineers? Something like 400 - 600K?

jmastrangelo 7y ago
From my (likely poor) estimation, an internally promoted director likely has ~10 - 15 years of experience, and externally hired directors can range from that little to much much more. These are usually very talented people who could be C-suite executives at smaller companies so their compensation makes sense. When I said "absurd amount of money" it was more of a rhetorical device, I don't actually think that its unreasonable, and yeah I meant ~500k or so. Considering the value good engineering and leadership bring to a tech company, this pay makes perfect sense, hell it still may be lowballing the value they generate for the organization. But it is still a high amount of money for a 9-5 individual contribution job compared with other industries. I'm more making the point that tech used to pay middlingly compared to other professional jobs (doctor/lawyer etc.), and Mechanical/Electrical engineering for the most part still do pay middlingly. I think this encouraged the talented to strike out for startups far more often as the opportunity cost of doing so was lower, especially in times with new technology waves where there was a lot more "low hanging fruit". I'm not saying the pay is anticompetitive or a bad thing, I'm merely commenting on a trend that I've seen where startups make less and less sense for talented individual engineers and I wonder how that will affect the tech scene in the next decade.
- mtberatwork 7y ago
  > I'm more making the point that tech used to pay middlingly compared to other professional jobs (doctor/lawyer etc.) Outside of SV, how is it not "middlingly"? Where can you make $500k+/year in tech working at some corporation??
  - jmastrangelo 7y ago
    Outside SV, Seattle and NYC it pretty much does still pay middlingly. But these same places that don't compete with SV on pay also often don't have an many resources for the startup oriented as well.

hodgesrm 7y ago

It's not clear that many of the people you are describing would have joined a startup anyway. There's big difference in the personalities who thrive in startups and those that thrive in large bureaucracies. An alternative view is that Silicon Valley and other tech centers are increasing dominated by the latter type of person.

jmastrangelo 7y ago
> An alternative view is that Silicon Valley and other tech centers are increasing dominated by the latter type of person. Definitely possible and likely true to some extent. Smart people who don't have a particular passion and may have chosen finance/consulting in another era are considering tech. Though I do see a lot of people move in and out of being high leadership at smaller companies/startups and into manager/director positions at FANG.
codr7 7y ago
I'd go further and note that online software discussions in general seem increasingly dominated by complete beginners who couldn't care less about code except as a stepping stone to money and fame. How this is all going to lead anywhere worth going is anyone's guess...
- jmastrangelo 7y ago
  I think the change will have two effects. The first is the cynical one, where tons of unqualified people come into the field just for the money, write poor software, and probably don't actually enjoy their lives that much because they're not good at what they do and lack that internal satisfaction. But, a more positive change is that there will be some high-impact multitalented genius individuals that choose to pursue tech instead of high finance or politics or something like that. Jeff Bezos left a hedge fund to start Amazon. Now he may be a ruthless son-of-a-bitch when it comes to competing, but for consumers the positive impact has been enormous. He's likely done far more good than he would have being a lifer at D.E. Shaw.

sgustard 7y ago

At least you're paid well to contribute to the destruction of privacy, fair elections and human rights.