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You linked to an article that links to an article that does not link to the source study (which supposedly claims that electric cars including battery manufactu

You linked to an article that links to an article that does not link to the source study (which supposedly claims that electric cars including battery manufacture create more CO2 than a comparable diesel car.) I'll list why this is irrelevant and misleading: - This comment thread is about overhead electric powered trucks. Battery manufacture emissions are irrelevant. - The article claims a lifetime of 10 years and an annual mileage of 15000km. Those are drastically low for a truck in Germany, and that means it's an inaccurate calculation to spread the manufacturing emissions over the driven distance. There were a couple more, but without seeing the source study I can't comment on them.

gridlockd 7y ago
You are of course correct in that these vehicles aren't directly comparable. Particularly, these vehicles will still be spending a significant amount of time just being regular Diesels. > The article claims a lifetime of 10 years and an annual mileage of 15000km. Those are drastically low for a truck in Germany, and that means it's an inaccurate calculation to spread the manufacturing emissions over the driven distance. Since there are no battery-associated emissions for these vehicles in the first place, that objection is moot, isn't it? On the other hand, surely building all this infrastructure will result in CO2 emissions. In any event, electricity in Germany is far from CO2 neutral, so the claim of "drastic reduction in CO2" with these vehicles just doesn't fly.
- SECProto 7y ago
  > In any event, electricity in Germany is far from CO2 neutral, so the claim of "drastic reduction in CO2" with these vehicles just doesn't fly. My earlier comment was a specific criticism of how the linked study doesn't apply to this thread. This claim you've just made, however, is different and broader - and disclaimed in an article here [1], and discussed on HN here [2]. I could get into a demonstrative calculation of how a solely coal-powered electric car is still better than the US-average ICE car in terms of CO2-per-km, but that's been done before [3]. [1] https://innovationorigins.com/no-diesel-is-not-better-for-the-environment-than-electric/ https://innovationorigins.com/no-diesel-is-not-better-for-th... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19795481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19795481 [3] http://www.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2017-18_Abstract_English.pdf http://www.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2017-18_Abstract_Engl...
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    > This claim you've just made, however, is different and broader - and disclaimed in an article here There are some numbers in there that I agree would be fair to use in favor of the EV, but on the whole this is cherrypicking in favor of the EV. In particular, just because Tesla uses renewables (for which they likely got a nice tax break and/or subsidy) to produce some batteries, we should all be using their numbers to represent the CO2 emissions for batteries? First of all, Tesla may have the single biggest battery factory, but they're not the biggest producers, or at least they won't be: https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/companies/catl-cars-germanys-big-chinese-made-battery-plant-to-dwarf-teslas-gigafactory/23955856.html?ticket=ST-2800585-ddJ4GQQSyMHjVodMOGhF-ap2 https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/companies/catl-cars-germa... The amount of cars they are able to produce is also very small, though in terms of demand for EVs, they certainly have a big market share. This is unlikely to stay true if EVs really go mainstream in Germany, because the EU will likely be favoring European carmakers with subsidies. > I could get into a demonstrative calculation of how a solely coal-powered electric car is still better than the US-average ICE car in terms of CO2-per-km, but that's been done before What does the "average ICE car" have to do with anything? EVs aren't "average cars" and even Diesels aren't "average cars" in the US. To quote that abstract: "The calculated fuel-economy-equivalent values for individual countries vary greatly, depending on the mix of fuels used to generate electricity within each country. [...] The corresponding value for the United States is 55.4 MPGghg (4.2 L/100 km)" You can certainly get a Diesel that beats 55MPG. It just won't be as fancy as a Tesla.
    - SECProto 7y ago
      > What does the "average ICE car" have to do with anything? Unless you can provide some source that is comparing overhead-electric-powered trucks to diesel-powered-trucks, it's all academic and off-topic anyway. I am just using the sources that are available (those that compare battery electric cars to ICE cars) to show that your claim (electricity in Germany isn't CO2 neutral, so it can't be claimed that electric vehicles will reduce CO2) is not correct.

gridlockd 7y ago

You are of course correct in that these vehicles aren't directly comparable. Particularly, these vehicles will still be spending a significant amount of time just being regular Diesels. > The article claims a lifetime of 10 years and an annual mileage of 15000km. Those are drastically low for a truck in Germany, and that means it's an inaccurate calculation to spread the manufacturing emissions over the driven distance. Since there are no battery-associated emissions for these vehicles in the first place, that objection is moot, isn't it? On the other hand, surely building all this infrastructure will result in CO2 emissions. In any event, electricity in Germany is far from CO2 neutral, so the claim of "drastic reduction in CO2" with these vehicles just doesn't fly.

SECProto 7y ago
> In any event, electricity in Germany is far from CO2 neutral, so the claim of "drastic reduction in CO2" with these vehicles just doesn't fly. My earlier comment was a specific criticism of how the linked study doesn't apply to this thread. This claim you've just made, however, is different and broader - and disclaimed in an article here [1], and discussed on HN here [2]. I could get into a demonstrative calculation of how a solely coal-powered electric car is still better than the US-average ICE car in terms of CO2-per-km, but that's been done before [3]. [1] https://innovationorigins.com/no-diesel-is-not-better-for-the-environment-than-electric/ https://innovationorigins.com/no-diesel-is-not-better-for-th... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19795481 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19795481 [3] http://www.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2017-18_Abstract_English.pdf http://www.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/SWT-2017-18_Abstract_Engl...
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > This claim you've just made, however, is different and broader - and disclaimed in an article here There are some numbers in there that I agree would be fair to use in favor of the EV, but on the whole this is cherrypicking in favor of the EV. In particular, just because Tesla uses renewables (for which they likely got a nice tax break and/or subsidy) to produce some batteries, we should all be using their numbers to represent the CO2 emissions for batteries? First of all, Tesla may have the single biggest battery factory, but they're not the biggest producers, or at least they won't be: https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/companies/catl-cars-germanys-big-chinese-made-battery-plant-to-dwarf-teslas-gigafactory/23955856.html?ticket=ST-2800585-ddJ4GQQSyMHjVodMOGhF-ap2 https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/companies/catl-cars-germa... The amount of cars they are able to produce is also very small, though in terms of demand for EVs, they certainly have a big market share. This is unlikely to stay true if EVs really go mainstream in Germany, because the EU will likely be favoring European carmakers with subsidies. > I could get into a demonstrative calculation of how a solely coal-powered electric car is still better than the US-average ICE car in terms of CO2-per-km, but that's been done before What does the "average ICE car" have to do with anything? EVs aren't "average cars" and even Diesels aren't "average cars" in the US. To quote that abstract: "The calculated fuel-economy-equivalent values for individual countries vary greatly, depending on the mix of fuels used to generate electricity within each country. [...] The corresponding value for the United States is 55.4 MPGghg (4.2 L/100 km)" You can certainly get a Diesel that beats 55MPG. It just won't be as fancy as a Tesla.
  - SECProto 7y ago
    > What does the "average ICE car" have to do with anything? Unless you can provide some source that is comparing overhead-electric-powered trucks to diesel-powered-trucks, it's all academic and off-topic anyway. I am just using the sources that are available (those that compare battery electric cars to ICE cars) to show that your claim (electricity in Germany isn't CO2 neutral, so it can't be claimed that electric vehicles will reduce CO2) is not correct.