6 ms·

Most users don't want control - more things to think about takes energy and time. The users that do want control, however, are likely to be the users championin

Most users don't want control - more things to think about takes energy and time. The users that do want control, however, are likely to be the users championing your product. Take a standard transmission in automobiles - the extra control it gives isn't necessary, and a large number of consumers prefer the automatic transmission. But the racecar drivers and car lovers are much more likely to want a standard. If you have intelligent, invested users, they'll want control options, and they'll usually tell you what they should be.

benj111 7y ago
On the flip side my government insists on giving me a choice of schools for my child. I don't really want choice, I want the local school to be good and for my children to go there. In this view, users still don't want control, its just a symptom of the failure to provide what users do actually want. The truth is probably between these 2 outlooks
- rubber_duck 7y ago
  > I want the local school to be good and for my children to go there That's assuming there's a universal "good" - even if a school meets some general standards one school can have a better arts program, the other might be more biased towards sports, etc. I don't see anything wrong with having choice - having a good baseline everywhere is a separate issue.
  - benj111 7y ago
    Well lets go out on a limb and say all schools are good, and specialise in one subject. Which should I send my 5 or 11 year old to? I mean they like football, but they also like drawing, but then neither of those are well known for paying the bills. So I still circle back making sure they get a balanced education. The problem though is that choice is the supposed solution to not having good schools. That may be UK specific though.
    - tomatocracy 7y ago
      The idea (although rather poorly implemented in the UK state system) is that choice leads to competition, and competition leads to improvement even of those at the bottom (and even for those who don’t really pay attention to the choice/don’t care). It’s a market philosophy of sorts.
      - benj111 7y ago
        I know that's the idea. The result is schools spending a non trivial amount of time jumping through hoops for the benefit of people who are ill equipped to evaluate those schools. On top of that the number of places are fairly static year to year so all schools end up getting filled anyway, but the 'better' schools are filled with the students that arguably least need the benefits, whereas the worst schools are filled with the children of the least able.
        tomatocracy 7y ago
        Yes. The 'market' mechanism for popular schools to find money and permission to expand while less popular ones are closed or taken over is missing and subject to too much political interference. So it arguably ends up as the worst of both worlds.
- Angostura 7y ago
  Ah, exactly the issue that sprung to my mind too. The tyranny of "choice" as introduced into various UK governmental systems is so bloody annoying. Great, I can "choose" my kids school, armed with a spreadsheet and looking at various progress, attainment and wellbeing metrics, that never actually seem to capture how happy and fullfilled the kids are at school. I can "choose" my hopsital consultant using the choose-and-book system. No. I want to send my kid to the local school that will be good and I want to go to the local hospital where I will be treated by a well qualified caring medical professional. I don't want to have to create pivot tables.
  - benj111 7y ago
    I'm British too, is this a British thing? Schools, not pivot tables.
    - Angostura 7y ago
      Knock yourself out https://www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk https://www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk
  - xorcist 7y ago
    It also provides the strange incentive to optimize for glossy powerpoint presentation that communicates our core values to parents. Organizations which never had to have a marketing department finds themselves struggling without one.
- naravara 7y ago
  >On the flip side my government insists on giving me a choice of schools for my child. I don't really want choice, I want the local school to be good and for my children to go there. Yeah, people mostly start asking for control when you make the default experience shitty. They want control to escape the hell they've been put in, but they have to pay a price for it either in money or time. So functionally, "give users more control" is really saying "make the user pay more to use my product." In an ideal world everything would be bespoke and custom tailored for me, but the idea there is that the tailor knows how to create what I want. Not that I have to go tailoring all my own stuff. I'm not competent enough to do that unless it's my hobby.
  - webmaven 7y ago
    > They want control to escape the hell they've been put in OTOH, if "user control" is seen as table stakes or baseline, it can limit the shittiness level that users will tolerate by lowering switching costs.
kriro 7y ago
In Germany consumers certainly do not prefer automatic transmissions (I do and it puzzles me why most people don't). So there's at least some culture/history involved in these preferences. I'd assume "wanting control" is also a bit of a cultural issue. In the end, I think/fear that on average lazyness wins every time.
- kkarakk 7y ago
  automatic acceleration feels really neutered in every car i've come across, being in control feels better than waiting for the car to kick in automatically. then again i ride bikes too and prefer a more active driving experience
- rashomon 7y ago
  I do think there is more of a feeling of attachment to the machinery with manual transmissions. Germany is a huge exporter of precision-engineering so there might be a cultural sentiment there.
  - jdietrich 7y ago
    Manual transmissions are the default in most of Europe. They're cheaper, they're more efficient and they make the most of small engines with limited torque.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      >They're cheaper Not substantially. >they're more efficient Not any more. >they make the most of small engines with limited torque. Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner! People like manuals because they can choose when to up-shift whereas the guys programming the automatic transmission will program it to up-shift as soon as they think they can get away with (for fuel economy and emissions). With a manual you can let your 1L hornets nest scream along at 4k all the time giving you close to peak power on tap whenever you want it. Basically manuals are a hack around regulations that force manufactures to build cars with performance characteristics nobody wants (under-powered engines and transmissions that up-shift at the drop of a hat). Those regulations are much stronger in Europe so the value proposition of a manual transmission is better there.
Nasrudith 7y ago
That is a separate issue from control - one of defaults. You can have a simple default that works or a complex one with defined behavior which have usability issues. Customization gives control to those who want to take it.
Mindwipe 7y ago
Automatic transmission cars are very unpopular across Europe. In all seriousness, I don't know if I've ever even seen an automatic in real life, except for travelling to the US.

benj111 7y ago

On the flip side my government insists on giving me a choice of schools for my child. I don't really want choice, I want the local school to be good and for my children to go there. In this view, users still don't want control, its just a symptom of the failure to provide what users do actually want. The truth is probably between these 2 outlooks

rubber_duck 7y ago
> I want the local school to be good and for my children to go there That's assuming there's a universal "good" - even if a school meets some general standards one school can have a better arts program, the other might be more biased towards sports, etc. I don't see anything wrong with having choice - having a good baseline everywhere is a separate issue.
- benj111 7y ago
  Well lets go out on a limb and say all schools are good, and specialise in one subject. Which should I send my 5 or 11 year old to? I mean they like football, but they also like drawing, but then neither of those are well known for paying the bills. So I still circle back making sure they get a balanced education. The problem though is that choice is the supposed solution to not having good schools. That may be UK specific though.
  - tomatocracy 7y ago
    The idea (although rather poorly implemented in the UK state system) is that choice leads to competition, and competition leads to improvement even of those at the bottom (and even for those who don’t really pay attention to the choice/don’t care). It’s a market philosophy of sorts.
    - benj111 7y ago
      I know that's the idea. The result is schools spending a non trivial amount of time jumping through hoops for the benefit of people who are ill equipped to evaluate those schools. On top of that the number of places are fairly static year to year so all schools end up getting filled anyway, but the 'better' schools are filled with the students that arguably least need the benefits, whereas the worst schools are filled with the children of the least able.
      - tomatocracy 7y ago
        Yes. The 'market' mechanism for popular schools to find money and permission to expand while less popular ones are closed or taken over is missing and subject to too much political interference. So it arguably ends up as the worst of both worlds.
Angostura 7y ago
Ah, exactly the issue that sprung to my mind too. The tyranny of "choice" as introduced into various UK governmental systems is so bloody annoying. Great, I can "choose" my kids school, armed with a spreadsheet and looking at various progress, attainment and wellbeing metrics, that never actually seem to capture how happy and fullfilled the kids are at school. I can "choose" my hopsital consultant using the choose-and-book system. No. I want to send my kid to the local school that will be good and I want to go to the local hospital where I will be treated by a well qualified caring medical professional. I don't want to have to create pivot tables.
- benj111 7y ago
  I'm British too, is this a British thing? Schools, not pivot tables.
  - Angostura 7y ago
    Knock yourself out https://www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk https://www.compare-school-performance.service.gov.uk
- xorcist 7y ago
  It also provides the strange incentive to optimize for glossy powerpoint presentation that communicates our core values to parents. Organizations which never had to have a marketing department finds themselves struggling without one.
naravara 7y ago
>On the flip side my government insists on giving me a choice of schools for my child. I don't really want choice, I want the local school to be good and for my children to go there. Yeah, people mostly start asking for control when you make the default experience shitty. They want control to escape the hell they've been put in, but they have to pay a price for it either in money or time. So functionally, "give users more control" is really saying "make the user pay more to use my product." In an ideal world everything would be bespoke and custom tailored for me, but the idea there is that the tailor knows how to create what I want. Not that I have to go tailoring all my own stuff. I'm not competent enough to do that unless it's my hobby.
- webmaven 7y ago
  > They want control to escape the hell they've been put in OTOH, if "user control" is seen as table stakes or baseline, it can limit the shittiness level that users will tolerate by lowering switching costs.

kriro 7y ago

In Germany consumers certainly do not prefer automatic transmissions (I do and it puzzles me why most people don't). So there's at least some culture/history involved in these preferences. I'd assume "wanting control" is also a bit of a cultural issue. In the end, I think/fear that on average lazyness wins every time.

kkarakk 7y ago
automatic acceleration feels really neutered in every car i've come across, being in control feels better than waiting for the car to kick in automatically. then again i ride bikes too and prefer a more active driving experience
rashomon 7y ago
I do think there is more of a feeling of attachment to the machinery with manual transmissions. Germany is a huge exporter of precision-engineering so there might be a cultural sentiment there.
- jdietrich 7y ago
  Manual transmissions are the default in most of Europe. They're cheaper, they're more efficient and they make the most of small engines with limited torque.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    >They're cheaper Not substantially. >they're more efficient Not any more. >they make the most of small engines with limited torque. Ding. Ding. Ding. We have a winner! People like manuals because they can choose when to up-shift whereas the guys programming the automatic transmission will program it to up-shift as soon as they think they can get away with (for fuel economy and emissions). With a manual you can let your 1L hornets nest scream along at 4k all the time giving you close to peak power on tap whenever you want it. Basically manuals are a hack around regulations that force manufactures to build cars with performance characteristics nobody wants (under-powered engines and transmissions that up-shift at the drop of a hat). Those regulations are much stronger in Europe so the value proposition of a manual transmission is better there.

Nasrudith 7y ago

That is a separate issue from control - one of defaults. You can have a simple default that works or a complex one with defined behavior which have usability issues. Customization gives control to those who want to take it.

Mindwipe 7y ago

Automatic transmission cars are very unpopular across Europe. In all seriousness, I don't know if I've ever even seen an automatic in real life, except for travelling to the US.