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Wasn’t Kubernetes introduced at Dockercon, and entirely built around Docker from day one? Seems like a pretty close collaboration to me. What kind of collabora

by zapita 7y ago

Wasn’t Kubernetes introduced at Dockercon, and entirely built around Docker from day one? Seems like a pretty close collaboration to me. What kind of collaboration could have taken place beyond that?

TheDong 7y ago
The two-ish years of Docker Swarm trying to fight with k8s and the weird tensions around Docker as the runtime in k8s probably wouldn't have happened if Docker had decided to join forces rather than actively compete. Anyone familiar with how the swarm and k8s politics played out would know it was not a collaboration at all.
- zapita 7y ago
  I agree that Docker took too long to embrace Kubernetes once it was obvious it had more momentum than all other orchestration projects combined. But nickstinemates suggests that Docker could have and should have “collaborated” much sooner than that, even before Kubernetes had launched. I wonder what that means in practice. What exactly should Docker have done, that they didn’t? And how would it have changed the outcome?
  - wmf 7y ago
    Docker could have never created Swarm and Compose at all. In hindsight if they went all-in on k8s from the beginning then they might now be the leader in enterprise k8s instead of Red Hat and IBM would be buying them. But this wasn't clear at all in 2014-2015.
    - cpuguy83 7y ago
      Compose existed before k8s, and was created by a small company that Docker acquihired.
    - GordonS 7y ago
      Personally, I like Docker Compose and Swarm, at the very least for non-production workloads - they're just so much lighter and simpler than k8s. I actually would have liked to see Docker not give up on Swarm so readily. There's absolutely room for a something simpler than k8s.
      - throwawaybbq1 7y ago
        Hindsight is 20/20. I recall looking at k8s and swarm closely circa 2014-2015. K8s wasn't very good. The networking worked best in the Google cloud .. not your usual datacenter. I recall concluding Swarm was the better tech. If history was any guide, k8s would lose steam. The borg connection .. I duno how much actual code went in there.
scaryclam 7y ago
Kubernetes was evolved from Borg, which long predates docker, so no, it wasn't built around it. I have to wonder just how much Google knew they were going to squash docker from the time of that announcement, or if there's an even longer play going on here.
- opsunit 7y ago
  You may find this comment on a previous thread an interesting counterpoint: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17580793 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17580793
  - scaryclam 7y ago
    Though, as a counter-counter point, a blog post from Kubernetes itself states that it's got a direct lineage https://kubernetes.io/blog/2015/04/borg-predecessor-to-kubernetes/ https://kubernetes.io/blog/2015/04/borg-predecessor-to-kuber... My guess is that the truth is in the middle :)
- zapita 7y ago
  That is a common belief, and a regular Google PR talking point, but it’s incorrect. Kubernetes is only vaguely inspired by Borg, and was created by different people, using different technology, endeavoring to solve a different problem. In fact you could say Kubernetes was evolved from Docker, much more than it was evolved from Borg.

by zapita 7y ago

TheDong 7y ago

The two-ish years of Docker Swarm trying to fight with k8s and the weird tensions around Docker as the runtime in k8s probably wouldn't have happened if Docker had decided to join forces rather than actively compete. Anyone familiar with how the swarm and k8s politics played out would know it was not a collaboration at all.

zapita 7y ago
I agree that Docker took too long to embrace Kubernetes once it was obvious it had more momentum than all other orchestration projects combined. But nickstinemates suggests that Docker could have and should have “collaborated” much sooner than that, even before Kubernetes had launched. I wonder what that means in practice. What exactly should Docker have done, that they didn’t? And how would it have changed the outcome?
- wmf 7y ago
  Docker could have never created Swarm and Compose at all. In hindsight if they went all-in on k8s from the beginning then they might now be the leader in enterprise k8s instead of Red Hat and IBM would be buying them. But this wasn't clear at all in 2014-2015.
  - cpuguy83 7y ago
    Compose existed before k8s, and was created by a small company that Docker acquihired.
  - GordonS 7y ago
    Personally, I like Docker Compose and Swarm, at the very least for non-production workloads - they're just so much lighter and simpler than k8s. I actually would have liked to see Docker not give up on Swarm so readily. There's absolutely room for a something simpler than k8s.
    - throwawaybbq1 7y ago
      Hindsight is 20/20. I recall looking at k8s and swarm closely circa 2014-2015. K8s wasn't very good. The networking worked best in the Google cloud .. not your usual datacenter. I recall concluding Swarm was the better tech. If history was any guide, k8s would lose steam. The borg connection .. I duno how much actual code went in there.

scaryclam 7y ago

Kubernetes was evolved from Borg, which long predates docker, so no, it wasn't built around it. I have to wonder just how much Google knew they were going to squash docker from the time of that announcement, or if there's an even longer play going on here.

opsunit 7y ago
You may find this comment on a previous thread an interesting counterpoint: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17580793 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17580793
- scaryclam 7y ago
  Though, as a counter-counter point, a blog post from Kubernetes itself states that it's got a direct lineage https://kubernetes.io/blog/2015/04/borg-predecessor-to-kubernetes/ https://kubernetes.io/blog/2015/04/borg-predecessor-to-kuber... My guess is that the truth is in the middle :)
zapita 7y ago
That is a common belief, and a regular Google PR talking point, but it’s incorrect. Kubernetes is only vaguely inspired by Borg, and was created by different people, using different technology, endeavoring to solve a different problem. In fact you could say Kubernetes was evolved from Docker, much more than it was evolved from Borg.