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>Non-car owners in high density areas are subsidizing car owners in those areas. Strongly disagree. First off, car ownership is typically expensive in dense ar

>Non-car owners in high density areas are subsidizing car owners in those areas. Strongly disagree. First off, car ownership is typically expensive in dense areas, and those with enough income to own vehicles are likely paying more in taxes toward these subsidies. Further, many, if not most subsidies for roads come from costs directly associated with ownership, like registration taxes, gas taxes, and toll fees. Now it may be true that these fees are not enough to cover the full cost of roads in the US[1], but if you consider that both road users and non users derive additional benefits from roads beyond direct use (in the form of cheaper transportation of goods, emergency services, public transportation), and that users pay an additional share of taxes that non users don't, then this subsidy by non users is probably quite small. In any case according to [1] the overall tax burden, not considering offsets by general benefits of roads for non users, is only $597 per household. 1.https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://uspirg.org/sites/pirg/files/reports/Who%2520Pays%2520for%2520Roads%2520vUS.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjGy_yk64ziAhUQS60KHV5KAsQQFjABegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw3ecu5h0MHua3I_XtWqKS8b&cshid=1557350008526 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...

shkkmo 7y ago
> First off, car ownership is typically expensive in dense areas, and those with enough income to own vehicles are likely paying more in taxes toward these subsidies. I'll grant there is likely a correlation between the amount of taxes paid and car ownership. However, isolating segments based on income means that within each segment, the car owners are being subsidized by the non-car owners. > Further, many, if not most subsidies for roads come from costs directly associated with ownership, like registration taxes, gas taxes, and toll fees. I don't think the numbers support you here, it varies significantly by state (from 5% to 80% with a mean around 50%) [2] 2. https://taxfoundation.org/road-spending-state-funded-user-taxes-and-fees-including-federal-gas-tax-revenues https://taxfoundation.org/road-spending-state-funded-user-ta... > In any case according to [1] the overall tax burden, not considering offsets by general benefits of roads for non users, is only $597 per household. That is just the construction and maintenance cost, that same document gives the following number: "Aside from gas taxes and individuals’ expenditures for their own driving, U.S. households bear on average an additional burden of more than $1,100 per year in taxes and other costs imposed by driving." If you look at my source's prior article (which didn't include federal gas taxes) the average amount paid is closer to 30%. So taken together (which may mix incompatible data), a rough estimate of the subsidy is an average of ~7-800 per household which I would not call "quite small". I suspect this estimate is somewhat low based on my understanding of how those two sources calculate costs.
- fwip 7y ago
  In addition, many cities require new construction (both residential and commercial) to include a certain amount of parking. While this makes some amount of sense, it also increases the cost , which is subsidized by everyone regardless of car ownership.
- zaroth 7y ago
  > Nationwide in 2010, state and local governments raised $37 billion in motor fuel taxes and $12 billion in tolls and non-fuel taxes, but spent $155 billion on highways.[3] In other words, highway user taxes and fees made up just 32 percent of state and local expenses on roads. The rest was financed out of general revenues, including federal aid. This did not include $28 billion from the Federal gas tax, so $49 billion becomes $77 billion. Looking into the Census data, it also inexplicably doesn’t include $21 billion of “Motor vehicle license” revenue. So we’re up to $98 billion. It also does not appear to include motor vehicle sales taxes, nor motor vehicle property taxes. I can’t find a figure for property tax, but I did find a report that in 2013 sales taxes for new and used vehicles totaled $38.9 billion. We are now approaching 100%... An AutoAlliance report calculates in 2013 the auto sector paid $110 billion in State taxes and $98 billion in Federal taxes. [1] Even this does not include vehicle property taxes, as the amount is not readibly calculable due to the sheer number of entries that collect this kind of tax. By comparison, the report linked from your [2] link did include this; > In 2010, state and local governments spent $60 billion on mass transit, ... , in turn raising $13 billion in mass transit fares, ... Seems like it’s mass transit that’s the one which is heavily subsidized. [1] - https://autoalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Assessment-of-Tax-Revenue-Generated-by-the-Automotive-Sector-for-the-Year-2013.pdf https://autoalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Assessme...

shkkmo 7y ago

> First off, car ownership is typically expensive in dense areas, and those with enough income to own vehicles are likely paying more in taxes toward these subsidies. I'll grant there is likely a correlation between the amount of taxes paid and car ownership. However, isolating segments based on income means that within each segment, the car owners are being subsidized by the non-car owners. > Further, many, if not most subsidies for roads come from costs directly associated with ownership, like registration taxes, gas taxes, and toll fees. I don't think the numbers support you here, it varies significantly by state (from 5% to 80% with a mean around 50%) [2] 2. https://taxfoundation.org/road-spending-state-funded-user-taxes-and-fees-including-federal-gas-tax-revenues https://taxfoundation.org/road-spending-state-funded-user-ta... > In any case according to [1] the overall tax burden, not considering offsets by general benefits of roads for non users, is only $597 per household. That is just the construction and maintenance cost, that same document gives the following number: "Aside from gas taxes and individuals’ expenditures for their own driving, U.S. households bear on average an additional burden of more than $1,100 per year in taxes and other costs imposed by driving." If you look at my source's prior article (which didn't include federal gas taxes) the average amount paid is closer to 30%. So taken together (which may mix incompatible data), a rough estimate of the subsidy is an average of ~7-800 per household which I would not call "quite small". I suspect this estimate is somewhat low based on my understanding of how those two sources calculate costs.

fwip 7y ago
In addition, many cities require new construction (both residential and commercial) to include a certain amount of parking. While this makes some amount of sense, it also increases the cost , which is subsidized by everyone regardless of car ownership.
zaroth 7y ago
> Nationwide in 2010, state and local governments raised $37 billion in motor fuel taxes and $12 billion in tolls and non-fuel taxes, but spent $155 billion on highways.[3] In other words, highway user taxes and fees made up just 32 percent of state and local expenses on roads. The rest was financed out of general revenues, including federal aid. This did not include $28 billion from the Federal gas tax, so $49 billion becomes $77 billion. Looking into the Census data, it also inexplicably doesn’t include $21 billion of “Motor vehicle license” revenue. So we’re up to $98 billion. It also does not appear to include motor vehicle sales taxes, nor motor vehicle property taxes. I can’t find a figure for property tax, but I did find a report that in 2013 sales taxes for new and used vehicles totaled $38.9 billion. We are now approaching 100%... An AutoAlliance report calculates in 2013 the auto sector paid $110 billion in State taxes and $98 billion in Federal taxes. [1] Even this does not include vehicle property taxes, as the amount is not readibly calculable due to the sheer number of entries that collect this kind of tax. By comparison, the report linked from your [2] link did include this; > In 2010, state and local governments spent $60 billion on mass transit, ... , in turn raising $13 billion in mass transit fares, ... Seems like it’s mass transit that’s the one which is heavily subsidized. [1] - https://autoalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Assessment-of-Tax-Revenue-Generated-by-the-Automotive-Sector-for-the-Year-2013.pdf https://autoalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Assessme...