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A Nazi Critic and a Gestapo Spy

80 points by neonate 8y ago

spamlord 8y ago
why is this on HN?
- dang 8y ago
  Because it's interesting. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Interesting historical material is always welcome on Hacker News. It's true that this story includes the words "Nazi" and "Gestapo" in its title; but not all such titles point to uninteresting flamebait, only most of them. Here we're interested in the exceptions to things.
  - groby_b 8y ago
    "not all such titles point to uninteresting flamebait, only most of them" Talking about flamebait...
    - dang 8y ago
      I meant it more as a wry aside to keep the readers of tedious moderation comments mildly entertained, but you're right: it's awfully hard to do that and not cross over into being inflammatory to some readers.
- mwfunk 8y ago
  It's pointless to ask that question (in any forum really), unless you love downvotes. If you want to contribute something, post about why think it shouldn't be, with references to the HN guidelines that you think backs up your case.
- thisThread 8y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19847437 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19847437
  - dang 8y ago
    Same answer about that one, actually: it's much more interesting than most articles with that theme. On HN we judge things article by article. That's the only way to optimize for curiosity.
leinad520 8y ago
Reminds me of this article called How I made $15,000 / day as a fresh college grad: https://hackernoon.com/how-i-made-15-000-day-as-a-fresh-college-grad-74a87a80c253 https://hackernoon.com/how-i-made-15-000-day-as-a-fresh-coll...
iron0013 8y ago
I found this fascinating. It’s important that first-hand accounts like this are documented.
sverige 8y ago
This was upper class resistance to the Nazis. The members of the Solf circle were aristocrats and included some members of the former Weimar government. There was other resistance centered in those social circles. There was, of course, also resistance from groups in the middle and lower classes. One interesting aspect of the heroine of this tale is her piety, a common theme among those groups that crosses the lines of social class. Die Weise Rose was an example of a Catholic resistance group with similar motivations. The lawyer Helmuth James von Moltke, who warned the diplomat Kiep of this informant's activities, was the great-grandnephew of Moltke the Elder, who won the Austro-Prussian and Franco-Prussian wars in the 19th century, and grandnephew of Moltke the Younger, who, when he was promoted far beyond his capabilities to Chief of the German General Staff, screwed up von Schlieffen's plan such that the German attack on France at the start of WWI devolved into the trench warfare that disaster became known for, instead of a decisive and quick victory in the west before attacking the Russians in the east. The Helmuth von Moltke of this story was executed by the Nazis in early 1945. I think it's always salutary to be reminded who the actual Nazis were and the kinds of things that they did to overcome the contemporary habit of calling political opponents by that name. Godwin's Law wouldn't be a thing if more people studied the actual history involved.
- brownbat 8y ago
  > This was upper class resistance to the Nazis. Even "resistance" seems strong. This was the Nazis murdering people for privately discussing true facts about the state of the war in Italy. Lest anyone forget, authoritarianism is unimaginably grim.
- gumby 8y ago
  > One interesting aspect of the heroine of this tale is her piety, a common theme among those groups that crosses the lines of social class. Die Weise Rose was an example of a Catholic resistance group with similar motivations. Interesting that in the 21st century it's now the pious who most zealously take up the sword (both legalistic and literal).
jonathankoren 8y ago
I found it interesting that Gestapo spy became a spy for the Stasi. Funny how that works.
- AndyMcConachie 8y ago
  Ex-nazis worked for both sides during the Cold War. When you're an occupying army(US/UK, USSR) you look for people who can get stuff done and who know people, and that means hiring the people that have experience doing the work.
iambateman 8y ago
I found the picture of Paul Reckzeh toward the end of the article haunting. Just an old man peering out of the window, 50 years after his crimes. On another note, I’m a big fan of Bonhoeffer. I was surprised while reading his biography to see just how few German critics spoke out or tried to organize against Hitler. At the same time, it seems the Allies weren’t listening to or cultivating anti-nazi Germans.
vmh1928 8y ago
The book about pre-war Berlin, "In the Garden of Beasts" recounts the experience of American Ambassador to Germany, William Dodd. As ambassador he and his family had many direct encounters with the German government of the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Garden_of_Beasts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Garden_of_Beasts
- AndyMcConachie 8y ago
  Is that book historical, or historical non-fiction? The latter being where the author embellishes facts for a better narrative. I'm genuinely asking as I haven't read it and don't know anything about it.
  - Eldt 8y ago
    Based on the wiki link they provided, non-fiction
  - shadowprofile76 8y ago
    It's a non-fiction book pretty much through and through. The author writes with an eye for entertaining narrative and thus you could assume that small parts are embellished a bit for this reason but overall I haven't seen any criticism of the book that claims anything remotely important to be fictional. Martha Dodd (the ambassador's daughter) comes across as particularly foolish. First because she tries to defend the Nazi regime to her friends and then when a bit of light finally dawns on her about its nature, switches over to becoming a useful idiot for the equally vicious soviet regime, working as an NKVD informatn/agent. And based on third party accounts and the old NKVD documents from her informant file, describing her as a useful idiot (stealing a phrase from Lenin) doesn't seem to be far off the mark. One soviet handler's description of her is rather amusing: "She considers herself a Communist and claims to accept the party's program. In reality she is a typical representative of American bohemia, a sexually decayed woman ready to sleep with any handsome man." Dodd herself met Hitler once through an introduction by a man who at the time was a close friend of the dictator, and her description of him was that he was "excessively gentle and modest in his manners"... Indeed...

80 points by neonate 8y ago

spamlord 8y ago

why is this on HN?

dang 8y ago
Because it's interesting. Please see https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. Interesting historical material is always welcome on Hacker News. It's true that this story includes the words "Nazi" and "Gestapo" in its title; but not all such titles point to uninteresting flamebait, only most of them. Here we're interested in the exceptions to things.
- groby_b 8y ago
  "not all such titles point to uninteresting flamebait, only most of them" Talking about flamebait...
  - dang 8y ago
    I meant it more as a wry aside to keep the readers of tedious moderation comments mildly entertained, but you're right: it's awfully hard to do that and not cross over into being inflammatory to some readers.
mwfunk 8y ago
It's pointless to ask that question (in any forum really), unless you love downvotes. If you want to contribute something, post about why think it shouldn't be, with references to the HN guidelines that you think backs up your case.
thisThread 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19847437 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19847437
- dang 8y ago
  Same answer about that one, actually: it's much more interesting than most articles with that theme. On HN we judge things article by article. That's the only way to optimize for curiosity.

leinad520 8y ago

Reminds me of this article called How I made $15,000 / day as a fresh college grad: https://hackernoon.com/how-i-made-15-000-day-as-a-fresh-college-grad-74a87a80c253 https://hackernoon.com/how-i-made-15-000-day-as-a-fresh-coll...

iron0013 8y ago

I found this fascinating. It’s important that first-hand accounts like this are documented.

sverige 8y ago

This was upper class resistance to the Nazis. The members of the Solf circle were aristocrats and included some members of the former Weimar government. There was other resistance centered in those social circles. There was, of course, also resistance from groups in the middle and lower classes. One interesting aspect of the heroine of this tale is her piety, a common theme among those groups that crosses the lines of social class. Die Weise Rose was an example of a Catholic resistance group with similar motivations. The lawyer Helmuth James von Moltke, who warned the diplomat Kiep of this informant's activities, was the great-grandnephew of Moltke the Elder, who won the Austro-Prussian and Franco-Prussian wars in the 19th century, and grandnephew of Moltke the Younger, who, when he was promoted far beyond his capabilities to Chief of the German General Staff, screwed up von Schlieffen's plan such that the German attack on France at the start of WWI devolved into the trench warfare that disaster became known for, instead of a decisive and quick victory in the west before attacking the Russians in the east. The Helmuth von Moltke of this story was executed by the Nazis in early 1945. I think it's always salutary to be reminded who the actual Nazis were and the kinds of things that they did to overcome the contemporary habit of calling political opponents by that name. Godwin's Law wouldn't be a thing if more people studied the actual history involved.

brownbat 8y ago
> This was upper class resistance to the Nazis. Even "resistance" seems strong. This was the Nazis murdering people for privately discussing true facts about the state of the war in Italy. Lest anyone forget, authoritarianism is unimaginably grim.
gumby 8y ago
> One interesting aspect of the heroine of this tale is her piety, a common theme among those groups that crosses the lines of social class. Die Weise Rose was an example of a Catholic resistance group with similar motivations. Interesting that in the 21st century it's now the pious who most zealously take up the sword (both legalistic and literal).

jonathankoren 8y ago

I found it interesting that Gestapo spy became a spy for the Stasi. Funny how that works.

AndyMcConachie 8y ago
Ex-nazis worked for both sides during the Cold War. When you're an occupying army(US/UK, USSR) you look for people who can get stuff done and who know people, and that means hiring the people that have experience doing the work.

iambateman 8y ago

I found the picture of Paul Reckzeh toward the end of the article haunting. Just an old man peering out of the window, 50 years after his crimes. On another note, I’m a big fan of Bonhoeffer. I was surprised while reading his biography to see just how few German critics spoke out or tried to organize against Hitler. At the same time, it seems the Allies weren’t listening to or cultivating anti-nazi Germans.

vmh1928 8y ago

The book about pre-war Berlin, "In the Garden of Beasts" recounts the experience of American Ambassador to Germany, William Dodd. As ambassador he and his family had many direct encounters with the German government of the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Garden_of_Beasts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Garden_of_Beasts

AndyMcConachie 8y ago
Is that book historical, or historical non-fiction? The latter being where the author embellishes facts for a better narrative. I'm genuinely asking as I haven't read it and don't know anything about it.
- Eldt 8y ago
  Based on the wiki link they provided, non-fiction
- shadowprofile76 8y ago
  It's a non-fiction book pretty much through and through. The author writes with an eye for entertaining narrative and thus you could assume that small parts are embellished a bit for this reason but overall I haven't seen any criticism of the book that claims anything remotely important to be fictional. Martha Dodd (the ambassador's daughter) comes across as particularly foolish. First because she tries to defend the Nazi regime to her friends and then when a bit of light finally dawns on her about its nature, switches over to becoming a useful idiot for the equally vicious soviet regime, working as an NKVD informatn/agent. And based on third party accounts and the old NKVD documents from her informant file, describing her as a useful idiot (stealing a phrase from Lenin) doesn't seem to be far off the mark. One soviet handler's description of her is rather amusing: "She considers herself a Communist and claims to accept the party's program. In reality she is a typical representative of American bohemia, a sexually decayed woman ready to sleep with any handsome man." Dodd herself met Hitler once through an introduction by a man who at the time was a close friend of the dictator, and her description of him was that he was "excessively gentle and modest in his manners"... Indeed...