10 ms·

> We collaborate inside proprietary environments, such as Slack and Google Hangouts. Most of the chat and messaging systems in use today are also proprietary an

> We collaborate inside proprietary environments, such as Slack and Google Hangouts. Most of the chat and messaging systems in use today are also proprietary and closed. So are most video-conferencing systems and the codecs they use. This one in particular worries me. Having access mailing list conversations and IRC logs provides such a rich history of open source development. I worry about every open source project moving to github / slack, where we may not have nearly as good a record of conversations that formed the software in 20 - 30 years. On the other hand you won't see any argument from me that these services provide an easier workflow than what existed before, and maybe that easier workflow opening development up to a wider community is more important.

rst 7y ago
For what it's worth, there are workalikes for both Github and Slack which are at least tolerable -- Gitlab has most of Github's core features, and there are multiple slack-alikes (the one I've got experience with is Zulip, which I, at least, find to be a whole lot better than Slack). BUT... Just having open-source (or free software) alternatives doesn't necessarily solve the problem. Gitlab and Zulip still leave your data scattered around back-end DBs which may not be terribly accessible in 20 years' time if the software itself doesn't still run.
- tabbott 7y ago
  Zulip lead developer here. For chat apps, I don't think the problem of "data scattered around backend-DBs" is a real concern. E.g. Zulip has a well-defined data export format that's easily parsable JSON and contains all non-transient data (i.e. the status of who's typing right now isn't included): https://zulip.readthedocs.io/en/latest/production/export-and-import.html https://zulip.readthedocs.io/en/latest/production/export-and.... And so do most of the other popular chat systems. I'd be surprised if Zulip doesn't still run in 20 years, but in any case, we have data import tools for the export formats of Slack, Mattermost, Gitter, and HipChat, and ultimately it wasn't that much work (The most recent few we've added were each a few person-weeks' work). So I think we can safely assume that at least for chat, it'll be possible to import the history. But even if they don't, there are already scripts to export the public history of a Zulip organization and turn it into a webpage that can be hosted wherever (see for example: https://leanprover-community.github.io/archive/ https://leanprover-community.github.io/archive/). The https://zulipchat.com https://zulipchat.com homepage and https://zulipchat.com/for/open-source https://zulipchat.com/for/open-source are relevant reading for folks considering Zulip for their open source project.
  - wmf 7y ago
    Can non-admins export data? Mailing lists often allow downloading archives in mbox format and people also have local archives. In cases of catastrophic failure or why-style "digital suicide", it seems like modern tools could easily leave a community with no records at all.
    - tabbott 7y ago
      Yes, via the Zulip API, which is how the Lean Prover tool works. Zulip's "full organization data" export tool is only available to administrators, and we haven't heard any complaints about that model.
oldjokes 7y ago
This one really freaks me out. Especially since many of the TOS are downright abusive. Discord, for example, reserves the right to read through and listen to all your communications and monetize that in any way and you agree to let them sell all that to anyone, forever. The fact that we're just sort of expecting everyone to slave away on github every night and weekend to remain employable is pretty disgusting too. That's not sustainable.
- iaarn 7y ago
  Friendly reminder that Mozilla has decided to abandon IRC and the Rust community has therefore moved to Discord, a platform that is abusive regarding data and requires you to use a closed source javascript application to access the service. Mozilla is a bad example because their leadership is simply pathetic, but you get the point. This trend is very, very dangerous. But well the writing was on the wall when many open source projects started moving to github.
  - shmerl 7y ago
    Why couldn't they use Matrix instead of Discord?
    - eclipseo76 7y ago
      According to them, because they have special needs regarding moderation, because "muh harassment".
      - Arathorn 7y ago
        fwiw Matrix provides pretty comprehensive moderation tools as per https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation, hopefully exceeding Mozilla’s requirements
      - icebraining 7y ago
        Source?
jaabe 7y ago
I’m probably bad but I honestly can’t get slack to work with all the different communities I’ve been invited to. Discord basically works like IRC, except almost every channel I’m in is by invitation only, making it almost impossible for new people to join. In my opinion IRC is still the best tool out there and I really, really wonder why we stopped using it.
- coldpie 7y ago
  I think by a wide margin the biggest problem is that IRC doesn't have any offline features. In a world where people swap devices all the time, it really sucks to have to drop your connection on every device change, and lose any chat that occurred while you were offline and be unreachable while you're offline.
  - michaelmrose 7y ago
    Maybe IRC should have a standard way to send an email to a user wherein the irc client knows the users email but don't reveal the users email. It could also use its intermediary status to filter obvious spam, individual channels/users could also set policy as to who is allowed to mail users for example registered accounts only.
    - ghostly_s 7y ago
      Well that sounds like a feature I would absolutely hate and never enable. Offline messages need to live in the same place as online messages.
  - kuschku 7y ago
    So use IRCCloud or selfhosted Quasseldroid+Quassel? Or maybe even Matrix with Riot and the IRC bridge?
    - cpach 7y ago
      IRCCloud is really neat. Great UI IMHO. However, I must admit I’m too cheap to pay $50 USD/year for something that I use even less than once a month. So I go with irssi+screen instead.
zanny 7y ago
Just use Riot. I actively seek to contribute to projects nowadays that actively use Matrix as its communication platform. Rust was mentioned in another comment - Mozilla might move to a proprietary data-insecure privacy violating walled garden of Discord, but the Rocket web framework, Tokio, and several other Rust projects have official Matrix discussion rooms as some of their primary points of contact.
mikenew 7y ago
Use Matrix. It's been a slow and bumpy few years, but it's there now. Idealism aside I genuinely prefer it to other messaging services. You don't need to host your own server or anything special (unless you want to). You can just sign up here: https://riot.im/app/ https://riot.im/app/
- bsder 7y ago
  Another website with ferociously irritating password restrictions... sigh.

rst 7y ago

For what it's worth, there are workalikes for both Github and Slack which are at least tolerable -- Gitlab has most of Github's core features, and there are multiple slack-alikes (the one I've got experience with is Zulip, which I, at least, find to be a whole lot better than Slack). BUT... Just having open-source (or free software) alternatives doesn't necessarily solve the problem. Gitlab and Zulip still leave your data scattered around back-end DBs which may not be terribly accessible in 20 years' time if the software itself doesn't still run.

tabbott 7y ago
Zulip lead developer here. For chat apps, I don't think the problem of "data scattered around backend-DBs" is a real concern. E.g. Zulip has a well-defined data export format that's easily parsable JSON and contains all non-transient data (i.e. the status of who's typing right now isn't included): https://zulip.readthedocs.io/en/latest/production/export-and-import.html https://zulip.readthedocs.io/en/latest/production/export-and.... And so do most of the other popular chat systems. I'd be surprised if Zulip doesn't still run in 20 years, but in any case, we have data import tools for the export formats of Slack, Mattermost, Gitter, and HipChat, and ultimately it wasn't that much work (The most recent few we've added were each a few person-weeks' work). So I think we can safely assume that at least for chat, it'll be possible to import the history. But even if they don't, there are already scripts to export the public history of a Zulip organization and turn it into a webpage that can be hosted wherever (see for example: https://leanprover-community.github.io/archive/ https://leanprover-community.github.io/archive/). The https://zulipchat.com https://zulipchat.com homepage and https://zulipchat.com/for/open-source https://zulipchat.com/for/open-source are relevant reading for folks considering Zulip for their open source project.
- wmf 7y ago
  Can non-admins export data? Mailing lists often allow downloading archives in mbox format and people also have local archives. In cases of catastrophic failure or why-style "digital suicide", it seems like modern tools could easily leave a community with no records at all.
  - tabbott 7y ago
    Yes, via the Zulip API, which is how the Lean Prover tool works. Zulip's "full organization data" export tool is only available to administrators, and we haven't heard any complaints about that model.

oldjokes 7y ago

This one really freaks me out. Especially since many of the TOS are downright abusive. Discord, for example, reserves the right to read through and listen to all your communications and monetize that in any way and you agree to let them sell all that to anyone, forever. The fact that we're just sort of expecting everyone to slave away on github every night and weekend to remain employable is pretty disgusting too. That's not sustainable.

iaarn 7y ago
Friendly reminder that Mozilla has decided to abandon IRC and the Rust community has therefore moved to Discord, a platform that is abusive regarding data and requires you to use a closed source javascript application to access the service. Mozilla is a bad example because their leadership is simply pathetic, but you get the point. This trend is very, very dangerous. But well the writing was on the wall when many open source projects started moving to github.
- shmerl 7y ago
  Why couldn't they use Matrix instead of Discord?
  - eclipseo76 7y ago
    According to them, because they have special needs regarding moderation, because "muh harassment".
    - Arathorn 7y ago
      fwiw Matrix provides pretty comprehensive moderation tools as per https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation https://matrix.org/docs/guides/moderation, hopefully exceeding Mozilla’s requirements
    - icebraining 7y ago
      Source?

jaabe 7y ago

I’m probably bad but I honestly can’t get slack to work with all the different communities I’ve been invited to. Discord basically works like IRC, except almost every channel I’m in is by invitation only, making it almost impossible for new people to join. In my opinion IRC is still the best tool out there and I really, really wonder why we stopped using it.

coldpie 7y ago
I think by a wide margin the biggest problem is that IRC doesn't have any offline features. In a world where people swap devices all the time, it really sucks to have to drop your connection on every device change, and lose any chat that occurred while you were offline and be unreachable while you're offline.
- michaelmrose 7y ago
  Maybe IRC should have a standard way to send an email to a user wherein the irc client knows the users email but don't reveal the users email. It could also use its intermediary status to filter obvious spam, individual channels/users could also set policy as to who is allowed to mail users for example registered accounts only.
  - ghostly_s 7y ago
    Well that sounds like a feature I would absolutely hate and never enable. Offline messages need to live in the same place as online messages.
- kuschku 7y ago
  So use IRCCloud or selfhosted Quasseldroid+Quassel? Or maybe even Matrix with Riot and the IRC bridge?
  - cpach 7y ago
    IRCCloud is really neat. Great UI IMHO. However, I must admit I’m too cheap to pay $50 USD/year for something that I use even less than once a month. So I go with irssi+screen instead.

zanny 7y ago

Just use Riot. I actively seek to contribute to projects nowadays that actively use Matrix as its communication platform. Rust was mentioned in another comment - Mozilla might move to a proprietary data-insecure privacy violating walled garden of Discord, but the Rocket web framework, Tokio, and several other Rust projects have official Matrix discussion rooms as some of their primary points of contact.

mikenew 7y ago

Use Matrix. It's been a slow and bumpy few years, but it's there now. Idealism aside I genuinely prefer it to other messaging services. You don't need to host your own server or anything special (unless you want to). You can just sign up here: https://riot.im/app/ https://riot.im/app/

bsder 7y ago
Another website with ferociously irritating password restrictions... sigh.