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It's all true, but to protect yourself from all that, you're going to have to keep your data away from Apple as well (i.e no iCloud drive/photos/calendar/mail,

It's all true, but to protect yourself from all that, you're going to have to keep your data away from Apple as well (i.e no iCloud drive/photos/calendar/mail, etc) Not running algorithms for ad targeting doesn't make the data any more secure. Only end-to-end encryption does.

amanaplanacanal 8y ago
I thought that stuff was all encrypted, and Apple couldn't see it?
- Dig1t 8y ago
  It _is_ encrypted, Apple cannot see it. The parent comment is mistaken
  - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
    I'm afraid you are mistaken: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303
    - gowld 8y ago
      Reading that article, the confusion is easy to explain and looks intentional. It reads "For certain sensitive information, Apple uses end-to-end encryption. This means that only you can access your information" and then immediate shows a giant table of data that is NOT end-to-end encrypted, but not labelled as such -- it's only inferrable by its omissions from the next section of the document.
      - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        I agree. It doesn't look like Apple was particularly keen on letting people know that they can actually read most data that people consider private.
  - mgleason_3 8y ago
    Yea, it's interesting how many comments are flat out wrong or can't seem to differentiate between what Google does now ...vs what might happen with Apple in the future.
    - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
      If you think that I am flat out wrong then please provide evidence. In this particular case it is you and Dig1t who are flat out wrong if you claim that Apple cannot see the iCloud data I specifically listed. Also, I didn't say anything about what Apple might or might not do in the future. I made a distinction between worries about ad targeting and security issues that come with storing data in the cloud without end-to-end encryption.
  - eertami 8y ago
    >Apple cannot see it. How can you be sure? End to end encryption is not a guarantee when you're inputting your key into a closed source client to store and retrieve the data.
    - MertsA 8y ago
      Especially given that key distribution is totally up to Apple and the end user has no practical way to verify that the key for "My iMac" is really the same key that's actually used by your iMac.
- fauigerzigerk 8y ago
  It is encrypted (except email) but Apple has the keys for the stuff I listed: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303 Also, in China Apple handed over iCloud operations to a government owned company, including the keys.
  - orhmeh09 8y ago
    I don’t see Apple having access to keys there. Could you point it out? CTRL+F for “key” came up with 7 results but nothing to suggest Apple holds them and can decrypt. Apologies.
    - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
      There's a section about half way down that lists all end-to-end encrypted data (keychain, health, payment data, ...). By implication, all other data is not end-to-end encrypted. That includes iCloud drive, photos, calendar, contacts and mail.
      - eunoia 8y ago
        Are we reading the same support article? https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303 Specifically listed as encrypted in transit and on server: - iCloud Drive - Photos - Calendar - Contacts Only mail is not according to this support article. Edit: I see the omission now. These things are not listed under the end-to-end section.
        fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        Yes, exactly, so that data is encrypted on the server using a key that is in Apple's possession.
      - MertsA 8y ago
        Also one big deal is how Apple handles key distribution. They absolutely could MitM that connection to get access to the user's keychain and the UI doesn't really give the user any feasible way to detect that Apple has added their own key instead of just the key for your other device that Apple doesn't control. It's "end to end encrypted" but if you just handwave away key distribution and leave that up to Apple, what's the point other than a marketing gimmick?
marssaxman 8y ago
This has always seemed pretty straightforward to me, so I simply don't store things that need to stay private on other people's machines. If I want to keep it private then I keep it to myself, and that's that. If I put it out into the world, I assume it's out there to be seen, and it doesn't really matter what privacy guarantees people claim to make today because policies may always change tomorrow. I do make one exception to this, in that I have a long-standing business arrangement with a company that manages my mail and web server, but I am paying them for a specific service which they have been completely reliable about providing, so I feel generally comfortable with that. I feel badly for people who haven't had the advantage of growing up with all this stuff and are therefore having to learn these lessons the hard way. Lots of painful experiences out there.
- glenneroo 8y ago
  I have a feeling such privacy-conscious decisions will eventually have consequences, akin to the social-ranking systems from that episode of Black Mirror, or in China[0], where in both instances various forms of punishment are dealt to those not contributing "positive" data to the cloud. It seems like there aren't very many people who really care about privacy... and they would be easy to single out and punish. On that note, enjoy your semblance of privacy now... while you still can! [0]: https://www.businessinsider.de/video-china-train-warns-citizens-to-behave-for-social-credit-system-2018-10?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.de/video-china-train-warns-citiz...
- CamperBob2 8y ago
  This has always seemed pretty straightforward to me, so I simply don't store things that need to stay private on other people's machines But what's the definition of "other peoples' machines?" If you run Windows 10, it's not really your machine. You don't have full control over it, do you? It updates and reboots when Microsoft tells it to, not when you tell it to. If you use a smartphone, that's not your machine, either. If you can't read and write every byte of storage from the baseband processor to the video chipset, but the company who sold you the phone can, then that means it's their machine, and not yours. If you use a Linux box or a Mac, I hope you never plug an Ethernet cable into it, because that effectively turns your machine into a dumb terminal on a system that isn't yours, just as the Oracle (Corporation) foretold. "Keeping it to yourself" gets a little less practical every year, it seems.

amanaplanacanal 8y ago

I thought that stuff was all encrypted, and Apple couldn't see it?

Dig1t 8y ago
It _is_ encrypted, Apple cannot see it. The parent comment is mistaken
- fauigerzigerk 8y ago
  I'm afraid you are mistaken: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303
  - gowld 8y ago
    Reading that article, the confusion is easy to explain and looks intentional. It reads "For certain sensitive information, Apple uses end-to-end encryption. This means that only you can access your information" and then immediate shows a giant table of data that is NOT end-to-end encrypted, but not labelled as such -- it's only inferrable by its omissions from the next section of the document.
    - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
      I agree. It doesn't look like Apple was particularly keen on letting people know that they can actually read most data that people consider private.
- mgleason_3 8y ago
  Yea, it's interesting how many comments are flat out wrong or can't seem to differentiate between what Google does now ...vs what might happen with Apple in the future.
  - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
    If you think that I am flat out wrong then please provide evidence. In this particular case it is you and Dig1t who are flat out wrong if you claim that Apple cannot see the iCloud data I specifically listed. Also, I didn't say anything about what Apple might or might not do in the future. I made a distinction between worries about ad targeting and security issues that come with storing data in the cloud without end-to-end encryption.
- eertami 8y ago
  >Apple cannot see it. How can you be sure? End to end encryption is not a guarantee when you're inputting your key into a closed source client to store and retrieve the data.
  - MertsA 8y ago
    Especially given that key distribution is totally up to Apple and the end user has no practical way to verify that the key for "My iMac" is really the same key that's actually used by your iMac.
fauigerzigerk 8y ago
It is encrypted (except email) but Apple has the keys for the stuff I listed: https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303 Also, in China Apple handed over iCloud operations to a government owned company, including the keys.
- orhmeh09 8y ago
  I don’t see Apple having access to keys there. Could you point it out? CTRL+F for “key” came up with 7 results but nothing to suggest Apple holds them and can decrypt. Apologies.
  - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
    There's a section about half way down that lists all end-to-end encrypted data (keychain, health, payment data, ...). By implication, all other data is not end-to-end encrypted. That includes iCloud drive, photos, calendar, contacts and mail.
    - eunoia 8y ago
      Are we reading the same support article? https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT202303 Specifically listed as encrypted in transit and on server: - iCloud Drive - Photos - Calendar - Contacts Only mail is not according to this support article. Edit: I see the omission now. These things are not listed under the end-to-end section.
      - fauigerzigerk 8y ago
        Yes, exactly, so that data is encrypted on the server using a key that is in Apple's possession.
    - MertsA 8y ago
      Also one big deal is how Apple handles key distribution. They absolutely could MitM that connection to get access to the user's keychain and the UI doesn't really give the user any feasible way to detect that Apple has added their own key instead of just the key for your other device that Apple doesn't control. It's "end to end encrypted" but if you just handwave away key distribution and leave that up to Apple, what's the point other than a marketing gimmick?

marssaxman 8y ago

This has always seemed pretty straightforward to me, so I simply don't store things that need to stay private on other people's machines. If I want to keep it private then I keep it to myself, and that's that. If I put it out into the world, I assume it's out there to be seen, and it doesn't really matter what privacy guarantees people claim to make today because policies may always change tomorrow. I do make one exception to this, in that I have a long-standing business arrangement with a company that manages my mail and web server, but I am paying them for a specific service which they have been completely reliable about providing, so I feel generally comfortable with that. I feel badly for people who haven't had the advantage of growing up with all this stuff and are therefore having to learn these lessons the hard way. Lots of painful experiences out there.

glenneroo 8y ago
I have a feeling such privacy-conscious decisions will eventually have consequences, akin to the social-ranking systems from that episode of Black Mirror, or in China[0], where in both instances various forms of punishment are dealt to those not contributing "positive" data to the cloud. It seems like there aren't very many people who really care about privacy... and they would be easy to single out and punish. On that note, enjoy your semblance of privacy now... while you still can! [0]: https://www.businessinsider.de/video-china-train-warns-citizens-to-behave-for-social-credit-system-2018-10?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.de/video-china-train-warns-citiz...
CamperBob2 8y ago
This has always seemed pretty straightforward to me, so I simply don't store things that need to stay private on other people's machines But what's the definition of "other peoples' machines?" If you run Windows 10, it's not really your machine. You don't have full control over it, do you? It updates and reboots when Microsoft tells it to, not when you tell it to. If you use a smartphone, that's not your machine, either. If you can't read and write every byte of storage from the baseband processor to the video chipset, but the company who sold you the phone can, then that means it's their machine, and not yours. If you use a Linux box or a Mac, I hope you never plug an Ethernet cable into it, because that effectively turns your machine into a dumb terminal on a system that isn't yours, just as the Oracle (Corporation) foretold. "Keeping it to yourself" gets a little less practical every year, it seems.