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I'm sorry. I can rant on about this for hours and hours and I feel like I'm already dominating this discussion too much. I don't believe language barriers are s

I'm sorry. I can rant on about this for hours and hours and I feel like I'm already dominating this discussion too much. I don't believe language barriers are such a big problem. Most tech people speak English. What's ironic is that those language barriers are exactly solved thanks to translation innovations coming from the US. I'm now able to communicate much more easily with fellow Europeans. I truly believe we have a problem in Europe where there's too much focus on welfare and government control at the cost of free market and innovation. Too much "system thinking" as opposed to creative engineering. This used to be different a couple of decades ago.

Carpetsmoker 7y ago
That okay, we all get carried away sometimes. I think you are underestimating the language and cultural barriers inside Europe. When I still lived in the Netherlands (my native country) we got a British employee at some point. Everyone in the company spoke English reasonably well, but not quite fluently. So what happened was that lunch conversations started out in English but quickly evolved to Dutch. I felt bad about it, but it was just so much easier to joke around in Dutch. This also mirrors the experience of my British ex-girlfriend, who lived and worked in the Netherlands. After this I lived in the UK for two years while working remote for an Irish company, and it took me a while to truly communicate efficiently with native English speakers. I knew the grammar and vocabulary, it just wasn't always obvious how to use it. People have made entire charts about miscommunications[1]. I also wrote a bit about this elsewhere[2]. It's one thing to argue in English on HN or watch Star Trek, but quite another to actually work in English every day. Perhaps it might actually be easier is everyone is a non-native speaker, but then you quickly run in to the "large group of natives speaking their own language"-problem I described before. In addition, actually living in a foreign country is also a bit harder if you don't speak the language. Either way, the barrier is certainly higher than in the US or China, where everyone just speaks the same language. [1]: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0jvF8NIMAAFIn6.png:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0jvF8NIMAAFIn6.png:large and https://merican.vickihollett.com/wp-content/upLoads/anglo-dutch.gif https://merican.vickihollett.com/wp-content/upLoads/anglo-du... [2]: https://lobste.rs/s/xnjo8g/add_downvote_reason_unkind#c_imbov9 https://lobste.rs/s/xnjo8g/add_downvote_reason_unkind#c_imbo... > too much focus on welfare and government control at the cost of free market and innovation. Too much "system thinking" as opposed to creative engineering. This used to be different a couple of decades ago. Wasn't there much more welfare several decades ago? This certainly seems the case in my own country of the Netherlands, and it was also true in the UK (until Tatcher came in). I can't speak to other countries. I'm not convinced these things are strongly correlated to creativity or innovation. It seems to me that the primary reason people create things is because humans are just creative; it's part of our nature. Certainly if I look at my own motivations the amount of money going to the taxman is pretty far down the list of why I do things. Additionally, not everything is about economics. I have some amount of sympathy for libertarianism/free market thinking, but too often does everything get reduced to merely an economical argument. The world is more than just economics. In Germany they've been having a large debate about the ethics of driverless cars, for example, whereas in the US they've just put the cars on the road without first having a public debate. It may be more "innovative", but is it also the right thing to do?
- bartimus 7y ago
  So according to the CPB welfare spending as a percentage of GDP in the Netherlands increased significantly from ~20% (1930) to ~40% (1970) up to ~60% (1980). https://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/download/de-nederlandse-collectieve-uitgaven-historisch-perspectief.pdf https://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/download/... As welfare spending increased we started losing our ability to innovate. We lost DAF cars (1972), Fokker (1996) and Philips has become a shadow of what it used to be. So take a company like Philips. Before they brought technical innovations like color television, the VCR and Compact Disc. I believe product development has since shifted from hardcore engineering design (technical) towards industrial design (art). Philips now believes it's all about "consumer lifestyle" as opposed to developing the next technological breakthroughs. Since then the consumer divisions pretty much died and all that remains are the consumer-less engineering divisions (ASML and Philips healthcare). How did this happen? I believe the welfare attitude plays a big role. People have gotten too comfortable. The education system is part to blame as well. Colleges and universities trying to lure students with sexy programs and the promises of sexy careers (that no company needs). Engineering usually isn't on that list of sexy jobs. In the US people seem to better understand you need to work hard to move forward. A job is more about the value you can provide as opposed to the value you receive. It seems we understood that better in Europe a couple of decades ago.

Carpetsmoker 7y ago

That okay, we all get carried away sometimes. I think you are underestimating the language and cultural barriers inside Europe. When I still lived in the Netherlands (my native country) we got a British employee at some point. Everyone in the company spoke English reasonably well, but not quite fluently. So what happened was that lunch conversations started out in English but quickly evolved to Dutch. I felt bad about it, but it was just so much easier to joke around in Dutch. This also mirrors the experience of my British ex-girlfriend, who lived and worked in the Netherlands. After this I lived in the UK for two years while working remote for an Irish company, and it took me a while to truly communicate efficiently with native English speakers. I knew the grammar and vocabulary, it just wasn't always obvious how to use it. People have made entire charts about miscommunications[1]. I also wrote a bit about this elsewhere[2]. It's one thing to argue in English on HN or watch Star Trek, but quite another to actually work in English every day. Perhaps it might actually be easier is everyone is a non-native speaker, but then you quickly run in to the "large group of natives speaking their own language"-problem I described before. In addition, actually living in a foreign country is also a bit harder if you don't speak the language. Either way, the barrier is certainly higher than in the US or China, where everyone just speaks the same language. [1]: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0jvF8NIMAAFIn6.png:large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0jvF8NIMAAFIn6.png:large and https://merican.vickihollett.com/wp-content/upLoads/anglo-dutch.gif https://merican.vickihollett.com/wp-content/upLoads/anglo-du... [2]: https://lobste.rs/s/xnjo8g/add_downvote_reason_unkind#c_imbov9 https://lobste.rs/s/xnjo8g/add_downvote_reason_unkind#c_imbo... > too much focus on welfare and government control at the cost of free market and innovation. Too much "system thinking" as opposed to creative engineering. This used to be different a couple of decades ago. Wasn't there much more welfare several decades ago? This certainly seems the case in my own country of the Netherlands, and it was also true in the UK (until Tatcher came in). I can't speak to other countries. I'm not convinced these things are strongly correlated to creativity or innovation. It seems to me that the primary reason people create things is because humans are just creative; it's part of our nature. Certainly if I look at my own motivations the amount of money going to the taxman is pretty far down the list of why I do things. Additionally, not everything is about economics. I have some amount of sympathy for libertarianism/free market thinking, but too often does everything get reduced to merely an economical argument. The world is more than just economics. In Germany they've been having a large debate about the ethics of driverless cars, for example, whereas in the US they've just put the cars on the road without first having a public debate. It may be more "innovative", but is it also the right thing to do?

bartimus 7y ago
So according to the CPB welfare spending as a percentage of GDP in the Netherlands increased significantly from ~20% (1930) to ~40% (1970) up to ~60% (1980). https://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/download/de-nederlandse-collectieve-uitgaven-historisch-perspectief.pdf https://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/download/... As welfare spending increased we started losing our ability to innovate. We lost DAF cars (1972), Fokker (1996) and Philips has become a shadow of what it used to be. So take a company like Philips. Before they brought technical innovations like color television, the VCR and Compact Disc. I believe product development has since shifted from hardcore engineering design (technical) towards industrial design (art). Philips now believes it's all about "consumer lifestyle" as opposed to developing the next technological breakthroughs. Since then the consumer divisions pretty much died and all that remains are the consumer-less engineering divisions (ASML and Philips healthcare). How did this happen? I believe the welfare attitude plays a big role. People have gotten too comfortable. The education system is part to blame as well. Colleges and universities trying to lure students with sexy programs and the promises of sexy careers (that no company needs). Engineering usually isn't on that list of sexy jobs. In the US people seem to better understand you need to work hard to move forward. A job is more about the value you can provide as opposed to the value you receive. It seems we understood that better in Europe a couple of decades ago.