8 ms·

You say that like "tech giants" are a good thing. The biggest difference doesn't seem to be taxes, but a predatory attitude focused only on their own growth and

You say that like "tech giants" are a good thing. The biggest difference doesn't seem to be taxes, but a predatory attitude focused only on their own growth and "to hell with everyone else". "Tech giants" of the past and present like IBM, AT&T, Microsoft, Facebook, Oracle, Uber, and Amazon are all widely disliked and criticized. Aside from that there are plenty of European tech companies (ASML, Logitech, Skype, Spotify, just to name a few) the attitudes in Europe tend to be different. Attend one of the Silicon Valley conferences where it's all "we're going to change world!" vs. the German CCC where it's "we're not sure if society as a whole benefits from this technology". There are probably other reasons too. Silicon valley and that Chinese city I forgot the name of are powerful "tech hubs" where workers, innovators, and investors meet. Europe lacks such a powerful "hub". I suspect the most important reason for this is that "Europe" isn't a single country but dozens of countries. Even in the EU – where you can legally move to another country at a whim – it's not so easy, as you may not speak the language. This is why the UK probably has more EU immigrants than many other countries, since most people speak some English. And sure, perhaps taxes can be a factor? I'm unsure of it, and I've never seen it proven, but I am willing to be convinced. Either way, it's certainly a lot more complex than "taxes kill innovation".

bartimus 7y ago
> You say that like "tech giants" are a good thing. What you see is that - if the Czech Republic would have their own tech giants - they wouldn't propose such an aggressive taxation towards it. It's why Germany was against such taxes because they fear repercussions towards their own industry. > But a predatory attitude focused only on their own growth and "to hell with everyone else". Such a predatory attitude also gets punished through free market forces. A company like Microsoft got severely punished for their predatory behaviors. One of my favorite tech giants is 'Robert Bosch Stiftung' from Germany. > Aside from that there are plenty of European tech companies (ASML, Logitech, Skype, Spotify, just to name a few) ASML is the meager remnant of the once almighty Philips. Logitech is Swiss. Switzerland indeed does a better job providing a healthy climate for innovation. Skype is owned by Microsoft. Spotify is indeed a lovely company (worth protecting for sure). > Europe lacks such a powerful "hub". This is indeed a problem. San Francisco provides an excellent climate that attracts innovation. An important factor was perhaps that there was so much room to grow. The right city at the right time. In Europe most of the land is already accounted or planned for something. China got to grow so quickly exactly because the government decided to embrace free market forces. > This is why the UK probably has more EU immigrants than many other countries Many wealthy people migrated from France to the UK when Hollande proposed his tax plans. https://www.businessinsider.com/small-business-owners-explain-why-france-is-a-nation-in-decline-2014-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/small-business-owners-explai... Now we see France giving all kinds of tax breaks to lure UK companies to France after Brexit.
- finchisko 7y ago
  >if the Czech Republic would have their own tech giants - they wouldn't propose such an aggressive taxation towards it. Wait, if the company was in Czech rep. it would pay taxes there already. Or what am I missing?
  - bartimus 7y ago
    The Czech tech giant would be operating globally. The Czech government would be less inclined to tax foreign tech companies if there exists a risk of foreign countries introducing tax repercussions for your own tech giants. Then if you apply specific "personal data taxes" they would come on top of the regular taxes already payed by your local tech giant. If such a tech giant would exist. The way this should be balanced out is by stimulating counter-innovation coming from Europe. Not by taxing innovation coming from foreign countries.
- blub 7y ago
  Well if Czechia had their tech giants they would lobby (read buy influence) against this as if their life depended on it. It's good that bigcorps don't have their claws in every country on the planet. Your "free market forces" argument comes straight from the 70s. How much more abuse are you willing to tolerate before it becomes blindingly obvious that market forces don't punish companies except if they don't make money. Microsoft was punished by the government, i.e. the law, not the market. And how did the market forces punish Facebook for the colossal fuck-ups? Because even after expecting a 5 Billion fine their stock was up. Saying that market forces punish predatory attitudes is beyond the pale. It's gaslighting and ignorance rolled into one. Skirting laws (Uber, Airbnb, Amazon), giving worker protections a runaround (any gig economy company) or destroying privacy (Google, Facebook, MS, many more) is not the kind of innovation this planet needs.
  - bartimus 7y ago
    > Microsoft was punished by the government, i.e. the law, not the market. I wholeheartedly disagree. There has been a huge active community rigorously battling Microsoft's dominance offering alternative technologies and innovations. They deserve all the credit for maintaining the balance. Not government. > And how did the market forces punish Facebook for the colossal fuck-ups? Facebook has become less and less popular in recent years. Exactly because people got concerned with those colossal fuck-ups. So you see Facebook on the fence of those things and trying to improve their company ethics. > Saying that market forces punish predatory attitudes is beyond the pale. It's gaslighting and ignorance rolled into one. This is perhaps the popular opinion in Europe. Do you completely deny the existence of corrective forces? It seems to me a the US is doing a far better job at embracing them and has a lot of its innovative success to thank for it.

bartimus 7y ago

> You say that like "tech giants" are a good thing. What you see is that - if the Czech Republic would have their own tech giants - they wouldn't propose such an aggressive taxation towards it. It's why Germany was against such taxes because they fear repercussions towards their own industry. > But a predatory attitude focused only on their own growth and "to hell with everyone else". Such a predatory attitude also gets punished through free market forces. A company like Microsoft got severely punished for their predatory behaviors. One of my favorite tech giants is 'Robert Bosch Stiftung' from Germany. > Aside from that there are plenty of European tech companies (ASML, Logitech, Skype, Spotify, just to name a few) ASML is the meager remnant of the once almighty Philips. Logitech is Swiss. Switzerland indeed does a better job providing a healthy climate for innovation. Skype is owned by Microsoft. Spotify is indeed a lovely company (worth protecting for sure). > Europe lacks such a powerful "hub". This is indeed a problem. San Francisco provides an excellent climate that attracts innovation. An important factor was perhaps that there was so much room to grow. The right city at the right time. In Europe most of the land is already accounted or planned for something. China got to grow so quickly exactly because the government decided to embrace free market forces. > This is why the UK probably has more EU immigrants than many other countries Many wealthy people migrated from France to the UK when Hollande proposed his tax plans. https://www.businessinsider.com/small-business-owners-explain-why-france-is-a-nation-in-decline-2014-10 https://www.businessinsider.com/small-business-owners-explai... Now we see France giving all kinds of tax breaks to lure UK companies to France after Brexit.

finchisko 7y ago
>if the Czech Republic would have their own tech giants - they wouldn't propose such an aggressive taxation towards it. Wait, if the company was in Czech rep. it would pay taxes there already. Or what am I missing?
- bartimus 7y ago
  The Czech tech giant would be operating globally. The Czech government would be less inclined to tax foreign tech companies if there exists a risk of foreign countries introducing tax repercussions for your own tech giants. Then if you apply specific "personal data taxes" they would come on top of the regular taxes already payed by your local tech giant. If such a tech giant would exist. The way this should be balanced out is by stimulating counter-innovation coming from Europe. Not by taxing innovation coming from foreign countries.
blub 7y ago
Well if Czechia had their tech giants they would lobby (read buy influence) against this as if their life depended on it. It's good that bigcorps don't have their claws in every country on the planet. Your "free market forces" argument comes straight from the 70s. How much more abuse are you willing to tolerate before it becomes blindingly obvious that market forces don't punish companies except if they don't make money. Microsoft was punished by the government, i.e. the law, not the market. And how did the market forces punish Facebook for the colossal fuck-ups? Because even after expecting a 5 Billion fine their stock was up. Saying that market forces punish predatory attitudes is beyond the pale. It's gaslighting and ignorance rolled into one. Skirting laws (Uber, Airbnb, Amazon), giving worker protections a runaround (any gig economy company) or destroying privacy (Google, Facebook, MS, many more) is not the kind of innovation this planet needs.
- bartimus 7y ago
  > Microsoft was punished by the government, i.e. the law, not the market. I wholeheartedly disagree. There has been a huge active community rigorously battling Microsoft's dominance offering alternative technologies and innovations. They deserve all the credit for maintaining the balance. Not government. > And how did the market forces punish Facebook for the colossal fuck-ups? Facebook has become less and less popular in recent years. Exactly because people got concerned with those colossal fuck-ups. So you see Facebook on the fence of those things and trying to improve their company ethics. > Saying that market forces punish predatory attitudes is beyond the pale. It's gaslighting and ignorance rolled into one. This is perhaps the popular opinion in Europe. Do you completely deny the existence of corrective forces? It seems to me a the US is doing a far better job at embracing them and has a lot of its innovative success to thank for it.