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"I also think it's weird that everyone has to learn these (and other lesson) themselves in their 20s/30s/40s/whenever " I have also wondered about this. And re

"I also think it's weird that everyone has to learn these (and other lesson) themselves in their 20s/30s/40s/whenever " I have also wondered about this. And recently was surprised that my kid's school has a multi-year program in which things like this are covered. They call it PSHE (Personal, Social and Health Education). It includes age-approriate learnings about relationships, starting in early years with friends and family relationships, what they mean, differences, feelings, etc. It gets repeated each year and expands earlier learnings. Seems very good. I guess it's a UK thing as my kid's school is an international school following the British curriculum.

barry-cotter 7y ago
The trouble is some of those children will take that educational face value and be confused that things aren’t actually as described. Educational materials are always sugar coated, sometimes more, sometimes less. Some people who realise they’ve been lied to find this quite disturbing, others treat it as the educational lesson it is. Educators are much more motivated to look good to administrators, parents and other adults than to help children. Helping children gives them a feeling of having helped and of professional satisfaction, looking good in front of people with power can make a real difference to their likelihood of having a job next year.
- geomark 7y ago
  It's true what you say about educators wanting to make themselves look good. But that doesn't detract from the program that I have seen. They do things like have the kids make posters about what is important to them in different relationships, and then have the kids talk about their feelings in various situations. It normalizes having conversations about those things. Sure beats anything we had when I was in school where we never discussed feelings or relationships.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    This can be a good programme with broadly positive effects for a large subset of students that go through it. It cannot normalise having emotional conversations. Schools can’t even reliably enforce a norm of non-violence or of respect for learning. If school teaches one thing and society and the outside world the outside world wins every time. Children pick up on hypocrisy and adjust very quickly. Some spot pious bullshit immediately, others learn through experience and many, of course, pay no more attention than they absolutely must, in every class.
    - mikekchar 7y ago
      I'm going to have to disagree with this. My school when I grew up utterly failed at this. Your school may have too. I was shocked when I worked in a school that didn't fail on this front. I'm not sure it would work in a standard North American school because the main problem is that parents don't respect the teachers/education system. Teachers have to accommodate every single bizarre idea that parents have about how to raise children. But if you have a private school that isn't afraid to tell parents to go elsewhere if they don't like the education, I think it can be done. In fact, I've seen it done. The Japanese school where I taught lectured parents for failing their children more than they lectured the students for screwing up. It was incredible.
    - geomark 7y ago
      Sure, the school is not going to overpower the influence of parents and the rest of society. But the program does help normalise discussing feelings and relationships, at least in some settings, like especially amongst the kids. Which is what you want because when those kids grow up to be adults they will have better social skills when interacting with their peers.
mikekchar 7y ago
In the Japanese high school where I taught English they had a class (once a week) for how to integrate into society. It taught everything from how to enter a stranger's house, how to greet people, how to bow, etc, all the way up to what is your life going to be like when you graduate (low level school, where more than 50% were going straight into jobs from high school). I begged them to let me sit in on it, but they said no :-( (Unfortunately unseemly for a teacher to be seen as not knowing this stuff already...). I really wish that schools put a higher emphasis on this kind of stuff rather than the 5Rs (err... how many Rs are there again...? :-) ) I bet there is a market for: My life is a mess - I can't seem to do anything right - Can you teach me the basics of getting along in society - Education. Well... I suppose the self-help market is a good indication of that, but I mean taking perhaps a more structured approach.

barry-cotter 7y ago

The trouble is some of those children will take that educational face value and be confused that things aren’t actually as described. Educational materials are always sugar coated, sometimes more, sometimes less. Some people who realise they’ve been lied to find this quite disturbing, others treat it as the educational lesson it is. Educators are much more motivated to look good to administrators, parents and other adults than to help children. Helping children gives them a feeling of having helped and of professional satisfaction, looking good in front of people with power can make a real difference to their likelihood of having a job next year.

geomark 7y ago
It's true what you say about educators wanting to make themselves look good. But that doesn't detract from the program that I have seen. They do things like have the kids make posters about what is important to them in different relationships, and then have the kids talk about their feelings in various situations. It normalizes having conversations about those things. Sure beats anything we had when I was in school where we never discussed feelings or relationships.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  This can be a good programme with broadly positive effects for a large subset of students that go through it. It cannot normalise having emotional conversations. Schools can’t even reliably enforce a norm of non-violence or of respect for learning. If school teaches one thing and society and the outside world the outside world wins every time. Children pick up on hypocrisy and adjust very quickly. Some spot pious bullshit immediately, others learn through experience and many, of course, pay no more attention than they absolutely must, in every class.
  - mikekchar 7y ago
    I'm going to have to disagree with this. My school when I grew up utterly failed at this. Your school may have too. I was shocked when I worked in a school that didn't fail on this front. I'm not sure it would work in a standard North American school because the main problem is that parents don't respect the teachers/education system. Teachers have to accommodate every single bizarre idea that parents have about how to raise children. But if you have a private school that isn't afraid to tell parents to go elsewhere if they don't like the education, I think it can be done. In fact, I've seen it done. The Japanese school where I taught lectured parents for failing their children more than they lectured the students for screwing up. It was incredible.
  - geomark 7y ago
    Sure, the school is not going to overpower the influence of parents and the rest of society. But the program does help normalise discussing feelings and relationships, at least in some settings, like especially amongst the kids. Which is what you want because when those kids grow up to be adults they will have better social skills when interacting with their peers.

mikekchar 7y ago

In the Japanese high school where I taught English they had a class (once a week) for how to integrate into society. It taught everything from how to enter a stranger's house, how to greet people, how to bow, etc, all the way up to what is your life going to be like when you graduate (low level school, where more than 50% were going straight into jobs from high school). I begged them to let me sit in on it, but they said no :-( (Unfortunately unseemly for a teacher to be seen as not knowing this stuff already...). I really wish that schools put a higher emphasis on this kind of stuff rather than the 5Rs (err... how many Rs are there again...? :-) ) I bet there is a market for: My life is a mess - I can't seem to do anything right - Can you teach me the basics of getting along in society - Education. Well... I suppose the self-help market is a good indication of that, but I mean taking perhaps a more structured approach.