10 ms·

Are you in the United States? I'm just curious how your homeowner's insurance feels about this? That is, will they still pay out for a claim should something h

by cr0sh 7y ago

Are you in the United States? I'm just curious how your homeowner's insurance feels about this? That is, will they still pay out for a claim should something happen, and they determine your modifications were at fault? Because if the adjuster or whomever does find you have such modifications - they -will- blame those. And probably deny your claim and coverage (and probably cancel your policy). At least that would likely be your experience if you live in the United States. I've often thought that having such a system would be fun, but the potential downside should anything go wrong has put a damper on it (even if whatever happened was not related to your modifications - they will blame it on them, just to get out of the claim). The only "inexpensive" way around it is to use UL listed interfaces made by a third party, then interface with those. But there, you don't usually get everything you want. Of course at that point, the insurance company might just shift the burden on you to "So, did you have this done by a licensed electrician? Where is your inspection report?"...

mylons 7y ago
does insurance feel the same way about a Nest and other commercial devices that are already available?
- asteli 7y ago
  A homebrew device with some IGBTs controlling main voltages, controlled by an Arduino, is vastly different from a commercial product that has to pass UL/Intertek/TUV certification (not to mention FCC EMC compliance). Those certifications exist specifically to protect consumers from devices that will burn their house down. This isn't to say that I would discourage a hobbyist from building their home automation controls. I would strongly recommend learning about designing electronics for mains voltage (creepage and clearance, grounding strategy, fuses and other circuit protection, types of transformers and how they're built (double insulated?), capacitor voltage rating|derating, ripple current ratings, lifetime vs. temperature, etc. You can be a hobbyist and design things well, just be thorough when it's something that can set you and everything you love on fire if you do it wrong.
  - GeorgeTirebiter 7y ago
    Here's a recent example where a guy designed an RF system (at 315 MHz) and it prevented garage doors opening in his neighborhood. He's described as an "electronics enthusiast". Thankfully, no one was hurt with this electronics misadventure. http://www.arrl.org/news/view/hams-help-trace-mystery-signal-disrupting-keyless-entry-devices-in-ohio http://www.arrl.org/news/view/hams-help-trace-mystery-signal...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
hathawsh 7y ago
I agree. I bought a little relay board a few years ago to get started on a project for controlling line voltage, but then I started to think: - Will the board short if it happens to collect moisture, oil, dust, or lint? What if a bug is attracted to it? Will I even monitor the condition of the board? - Will the traces and relays heat up if I accidentally draw too much current through them? Will they degrade over time? - Is there a chance that vibration could loosen the board and make unintentional connections? I decided I probably could never answer these questions well enough to satisfy an insurance company. It doesn't matter that I have plenty of experience with line voltage; what matters is that I am not a licensed electrician. Therefore, at home, I only experiment with low voltage and low current, delegating all line voltage to UL listed devices.
simonbh 7y ago
I went with a IotaWatt for measuring my home energy usage. It is based on the ESP8266 and is completely opensource hardware and software. You retain control of your data or you send to an external server. https://iotawatt.com/ https://iotawatt.com/
- lstodd 7y ago
  It doesn't measure voltage and thus can't measure true energy consumption = power, only currents. It then must estimate power based on some preset voltage. Not to mention those clamps can't have precision or time resolution for truly interesting stuff. A toy, in other words. It might be good enough to get a rough idea what eats more or less and when, but it'll never match the utility power meter which is what you're paying by. cdrc: I rewire my houses myself, because those licensed loons can't be trusted with a 12V light bulb. At least that way _I_ am sure it won't blow up or burn or whatever.
  - generallee5686 7y ago
    The IoTaWatt does measure voltage. You plug in a calibrated AC wall wort as well as the DC USB power supply.
    - lstodd 7y ago
      Well, sorry, then. Missed that bit on their site. Still, inductive current measurement with the sizes of the clamps they show and typical currents they're measuring isn't accurate at all. Not even considering that voltage measuremens via a wall wart would depend on what load is currently sharing the same wiring. This might be my bias since I design similar stuff for solar offgrid, where a percent or ten off are that much in capex divided by battery lifetime, then multiplied by battery cost. It bites. I don't trust inductive clamps at low currents. I would never trust measuring voltage on the same line as a load. Hall sensors or current shunts; voltage dividers - all driving MCU ADC channels via optoisolated opamps. Everything measured as near to the source as possible. Otherwise you're getting nearly worthless data.
  - Gibbon1 7y ago
Gibbon1 7y ago
In the US the home owners policy like auto insurance isn't to protect the home owner. It's to protect the bank holding the mortgage. The flip side of that is the risk of a geek installing a power monitor without permits pales in comparison to someone plugging a 1500 Watt wall heater an an ancient wall outlet.
fenwick67 7y ago
"Because if the adjuster or whomever does find you have such modifications - they -will- blame those. And probably deny your claim and coverage (and probably cancel your policy)." I'm skeptical that an insurance company will be able to determine exactly what part you used and if it was UL listed unless you yourself tell them
- CloudNetworking 7y ago
  They don't need to. They'll just claim it was and you'll have to take them to court if you want to counter-claim that.
- close04 7y ago
  If an incident occurs and they identify additional components connected to the "trigger" you'd have to provide the whole "paper trail" for every single bit of your setup and show that it's above board: were the components certified for the use, were they installed by authorized personnel, were they operated properly, was the code you wrote for it to blame, etc. If you handled all the implementation yourself then it's hard to pass the responsibility along. While not impossible, it's still a high bar. And you wouldn't be in the best position to fight. If it's an electrical fire and they find modifications to the electrical wiring the chances of getting the insurance money are slim. Unless those modifications are explicitly covered by the insurance. Given the kind of exposure insurance companies have they are willing to invest a lot in fighting the payout. It's their business model.
  - fr0sty 7y ago
    > you'd have to provide the whole "paper trail" for every single bit of your setup Can you cite any firsthand account of this sort of thing happening somewhere in the US? Given the ease with which people can reach millions of people with their tale of woe/outrage the fact that such stories are not readily available on social media makes me think this is mostly urban legend.
    - close04 7y ago
      Not sure I understand, you think it's an urban legend that an insurance company will do what it can to avoid a payout especially when the incident involves unauthorized modifications to the electrical wiring of the house, which ended up triggering a fire? There's no need to cite firsthand accounts, you will find this in your own insurance contract. Insurance works pretty much the same everywhere, unauthorized modifications (especially to critical systems) usually invalidate any insurance claim when they can be linked to the incident. [0] Electrical wiring, plumbing, structure of the building, safety or security systems, etc. And it makes perfect sense if you think about it. [0] http://www.insurancequotes.org/renters/3-major-diy-mistakes-that-can-affect-insurance/ http://www.insurancequotes.org/renters/3-major-diy-mistakes-...
neya 7y ago
I'm not in the US, so maybe that's a consideration for these type of projects.
fr0sty 7y ago
> And probably deny your claim and coverage (and probably cancel your policy). Can you point me to an instance of this actually happening? I see this warning given all the time but have to date never found an instance where someone's claim was denied for these sorts of reasons.

by cr0sh 7y ago

mylons 7y ago

does insurance feel the same way about a Nest and other commercial devices that are already available?

asteli 7y ago
A homebrew device with some IGBTs controlling main voltages, controlled by an Arduino, is vastly different from a commercial product that has to pass UL/Intertek/TUV certification (not to mention FCC EMC compliance). Those certifications exist specifically to protect consumers from devices that will burn their house down. This isn't to say that I would discourage a hobbyist from building their home automation controls. I would strongly recommend learning about designing electronics for mains voltage (creepage and clearance, grounding strategy, fuses and other circuit protection, types of transformers and how they're built (double insulated?), capacitor voltage rating|derating, ripple current ratings, lifetime vs. temperature, etc. You can be a hobbyist and design things well, just be thorough when it's something that can set you and everything you love on fire if you do it wrong.
- GeorgeTirebiter 7y ago
  Here's a recent example where a guy designed an RF system (at 315 MHz) and it prevented garage doors opening in his neighborhood. He's described as an "electronics enthusiast". Thankfully, no one was hurt with this electronics misadventure. http://www.arrl.org/news/view/hams-help-trace-mystery-signal-disrupting-keyless-entry-devices-in-ohio http://www.arrl.org/news/view/hams-help-trace-mystery-signal...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

hathawsh 7y ago

I agree. I bought a little relay board a few years ago to get started on a project for controlling line voltage, but then I started to think: - Will the board short if it happens to collect moisture, oil, dust, or lint? What if a bug is attracted to it? Will I even monitor the condition of the board? - Will the traces and relays heat up if I accidentally draw too much current through them? Will they degrade over time? - Is there a chance that vibration could loosen the board and make unintentional connections? I decided I probably could never answer these questions well enough to satisfy an insurance company. It doesn't matter that I have plenty of experience with line voltage; what matters is that I am not a licensed electrician. Therefore, at home, I only experiment with low voltage and low current, delegating all line voltage to UL listed devices.

simonbh 7y ago

I went with a IotaWatt for measuring my home energy usage. It is based on the ESP8266 and is completely opensource hardware and software. You retain control of your data or you send to an external server. https://iotawatt.com/ https://iotawatt.com/

lstodd 7y ago
It doesn't measure voltage and thus can't measure true energy consumption = power, only currents. It then must estimate power based on some preset voltage. Not to mention those clamps can't have precision or time resolution for truly interesting stuff. A toy, in other words. It might be good enough to get a rough idea what eats more or less and when, but it'll never match the utility power meter which is what you're paying by. cdrc: I rewire my houses myself, because those licensed loons can't be trusted with a 12V light bulb. At least that way _I_ am sure it won't blow up or burn or whatever.
- generallee5686 7y ago
  The IoTaWatt does measure voltage. You plug in a calibrated AC wall wort as well as the DC USB power supply.
  - lstodd 7y ago
    Well, sorry, then. Missed that bit on their site. Still, inductive current measurement with the sizes of the clamps they show and typical currents they're measuring isn't accurate at all. Not even considering that voltage measuremens via a wall wart would depend on what load is currently sharing the same wiring. This might be my bias since I design similar stuff for solar offgrid, where a percent or ten off are that much in capex divided by battery lifetime, then multiplied by battery cost. It bites. I don't trust inductive clamps at low currents. I would never trust measuring voltage on the same line as a load. Hall sensors or current shunts; voltage dividers - all driving MCU ADC channels via optoisolated opamps. Everything measured as near to the source as possible. Otherwise you're getting nearly worthless data.
- Gibbon1 7y ago

Gibbon1 7y ago

In the US the home owners policy like auto insurance isn't to protect the home owner. It's to protect the bank holding the mortgage. The flip side of that is the risk of a geek installing a power monitor without permits pales in comparison to someone plugging a 1500 Watt wall heater an an ancient wall outlet.

fenwick67 7y ago

"Because if the adjuster or whomever does find you have such modifications - they -will- blame those. And probably deny your claim and coverage (and probably cancel your policy)." I'm skeptical that an insurance company will be able to determine exactly what part you used and if it was UL listed unless you yourself tell them

CloudNetworking 7y ago
They don't need to. They'll just claim it was and you'll have to take them to court if you want to counter-claim that.
close04 7y ago
If an incident occurs and they identify additional components connected to the "trigger" you'd have to provide the whole "paper trail" for every single bit of your setup and show that it's above board: were the components certified for the use, were they installed by authorized personnel, were they operated properly, was the code you wrote for it to blame, etc. If you handled all the implementation yourself then it's hard to pass the responsibility along. While not impossible, it's still a high bar. And you wouldn't be in the best position to fight. If it's an electrical fire and they find modifications to the electrical wiring the chances of getting the insurance money are slim. Unless those modifications are explicitly covered by the insurance. Given the kind of exposure insurance companies have they are willing to invest a lot in fighting the payout. It's their business model.
- fr0sty 7y ago
  > you'd have to provide the whole "paper trail" for every single bit of your setup Can you cite any firsthand account of this sort of thing happening somewhere in the US? Given the ease with which people can reach millions of people with their tale of woe/outrage the fact that such stories are not readily available on social media makes me think this is mostly urban legend.
  - close04 7y ago
    Not sure I understand, you think it's an urban legend that an insurance company will do what it can to avoid a payout especially when the incident involves unauthorized modifications to the electrical wiring of the house, which ended up triggering a fire? There's no need to cite firsthand accounts, you will find this in your own insurance contract. Insurance works pretty much the same everywhere, unauthorized modifications (especially to critical systems) usually invalidate any insurance claim when they can be linked to the incident. [0] Electrical wiring, plumbing, structure of the building, safety or security systems, etc. And it makes perfect sense if you think about it. [0] http://www.insurancequotes.org/renters/3-major-diy-mistakes-that-can-affect-insurance/ http://www.insurancequotes.org/renters/3-major-diy-mistakes-...

neya 7y ago

I'm not in the US, so maybe that's a consideration for these type of projects.

fr0sty 7y ago

> And probably deny your claim and coverage (and probably cancel your policy). Can you point me to an instance of this actually happening? I see this warning given all the time but have to date never found an instance where someone's claim was denied for these sorts of reasons.