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As someone who has spent time as a project and product manager, I will say a lot of it comes down to a point of view that 'tech will make it happen'. Many time

As someone who has spent time as a project and product manager, I will say a lot of it comes down to a point of view that 'tech will make it happen'. Many times I've seen long time estimates for something, because C level was requesting "X feature". But when you sit down down with C level, and understand what they want to achieve with X feature, many times it is possible to sit down with tech and figure a way to get what was wanted without the feature, generally by adapting some other request or feature. The problem is that most managers are looking to suck up to C level guys and 'deliver'. And many C level guys won't stand the insubordination of someone telling them 'maybe that thing you guys thought of isn't the best way to achieve what you want', no matter how much you work on the techniques from How to Win friends and influence people. Some guys are just dictators, and some are suck ups, and when the two meet, as they often do, it means tech will work 10x what is needed to get where the company needs to be, because the focus will be on what someone requested, not what we are looking to get at. Also, many developers get stuck in the mindset of places like that, where they assume they have no voice and everything they say will be used against them. So you ask them as a manager how they would achieve X and they just say "tell me what you want in the spec sheet"... people get weirdly conditioned when in negative re-enforcement environments.

jrochkind1 7y ago
> because C level was requesting "X feature". But when you sit down down with C level, and understand what they want to achieve with X feature, many times it is possible to sit down with tech and figure a way to get what was wanted without the feature, generally by adapting some other request or feature. In the best functioning development organizations I have experienced or seen, nobody should be asking for "X feature", they should be explaining what their actual needs are, what they need to get out of the software and why. And how important it is to them, or even what their "budget" for it is. And a technical designer (who could be a developer who has some design skills perhaps by experience, or a designer who understands the tech) _designs a solution_. This requires someone(s) on the "development" side who can do needs/requirements analysis leading design (ie, "UX"). And it requires the stakeholders to trust that the capacity is there, and that it will turn all right if they don't try to micromanage the feature -- not just "all right", it'll be SO MUCH BETTER. This works so well when the organization staffs itself to make it possible and the people in charge allow it to happen, that it seems kind of insane that so few organizations do so.
- robbiemitchell 7y ago
  You just described product managers. They solicit needs from customers, support conversations, etc. and translate those into future development. They combine those needs into major product directions and balance them with an internal compass for where the companyw wants the product to be (i.e., what jobs they want to solve for which users.) They are technical people with an eye for how something should be built, working closely with designers (visual, UX, etc.) Excellent companies figure out how to deploy these types of thinkers -- with appropriate mandate -- throughout the organization.
  - arvinsim 7y ago
    I am pretty sure that my Product Manager has no technical experience at all. And I assume that it's not mandatory for them. If they are supposed to be technical, then we hired wrongly.
    - pureliquidhw 7y ago
      Technical enough to understand, but probably not technical enough to build (but maybe was at some point). That's where they need to live. Their job is to align the devs and the roadmap with the business needs, prioritize what bugs to fix, and decide which enhancements are worthwhile. They also need to know when the team is bullshitting them and when a tech design is too complex or simple. I can imagine a non-technical person could end up in this role and succeed, but someone with a technical background and some business acumen will have a much higher probability of success.
  - 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
    Though you know, sometimes organizations fall into this issue in other areas. I once worked with a company that had that attitude toward accounting/compliance - so much more work and all because the primary holders were not in agreement, so they kicked the corporate structure can down the road. Same goes for CS, etc. I guess the only solution is a holistic approach, but even then sometimes someone will have to bear the brunt of being the area where people will 'will handle it', at some point a CEO will decide that is what is needed and it will be needed, even in a perfect organization.

jrochkind1 7y ago

> because C level was requesting "X feature". But when you sit down down with C level, and understand what they want to achieve with X feature, many times it is possible to sit down with tech and figure a way to get what was wanted without the feature, generally by adapting some other request or feature. In the best functioning development organizations I have experienced or seen, nobody should be asking for "X feature", they should be explaining what their actual needs are, what they need to get out of the software and why. And how important it is to them, or even what their "budget" for it is. And a technical designer (who could be a developer who has some design skills perhaps by experience, or a designer who understands the tech) _designs a solution_. This requires someone(s) on the "development" side who can do needs/requirements analysis leading design (ie, "UX"). And it requires the stakeholders to trust that the capacity is there, and that it will turn all right if they don't try to micromanage the feature -- not just "all right", it'll be SO MUCH BETTER. This works so well when the organization staffs itself to make it possible and the people in charge allow it to happen, that it seems kind of insane that so few organizations do so.

robbiemitchell 7y ago
You just described product managers. They solicit needs from customers, support conversations, etc. and translate those into future development. They combine those needs into major product directions and balance them with an internal compass for where the companyw wants the product to be (i.e., what jobs they want to solve for which users.) They are technical people with an eye for how something should be built, working closely with designers (visual, UX, etc.) Excellent companies figure out how to deploy these types of thinkers -- with appropriate mandate -- throughout the organization.
- arvinsim 7y ago
  I am pretty sure that my Product Manager has no technical experience at all. And I assume that it's not mandatory for them. If they are supposed to be technical, then we hired wrongly.
  - pureliquidhw 7y ago
    Technical enough to understand, but probably not technical enough to build (but maybe was at some point). That's where they need to live. Their job is to align the devs and the roadmap with the business needs, prioritize what bugs to fix, and decide which enhancements are worthwhile. They also need to know when the team is bullshitting them and when a tech design is too complex or simple. I can imagine a non-technical person could end up in this role and succeed, but someone with a technical background and some business acumen will have a much higher probability of success.
- 4ntonius8lock 7y ago
  Though you know, sometimes organizations fall into this issue in other areas. I once worked with a company that had that attitude toward accounting/compliance - so much more work and all because the primary holders were not in agreement, so they kicked the corporate structure can down the road. Same goes for CS, etc. I guess the only solution is a holistic approach, but even then sometimes someone will have to bear the brunt of being the area where people will 'will handle it', at some point a CEO will decide that is what is needed and it will be needed, even in a perfect organization.