5 ms·

This almost sounds like a case where the city cheaped out (maybe the budget just wasn't there?), and went with a third tier supplier. I noticed the article not

by cr0sh 7y ago

This almost sounds like a case where the city cheaped out (maybe the budget just wasn't there?), and went with a third tier supplier. I noticed the article noted that units supplied from Cree, used in other areas of the country, are performing up to standards and not dying like the ones in Detroit from Leotek. To me, it's one thing if you're a hobbyist or something looking to save some bucks so you buy cheap LEDs drop shipped from China via Ali Express, from some rando vendor and manufacturer. If one or more die, usually it's not a big deal. But if you're building a product, or installing something commercially or at a government level, you should do yourself a favor and not go for the lowest cost. While I'm sure Cree LEDs are probably manufactured in China, too, they are likely made to a much different standard. For all we know, Leotek is using relabeled parts that are marginal or failed to pass QA inspections at other manufacturers, but they got a great deal on barrels of rejected LEDs, and decided to go into the commercial light manufacturing business. I honestly don't know who or what the company is. What I do know is the name "Cree" and their quality (which also comes with a hefty $$$ price/cost) - but "Leotek" sounds like a company you'd find in a random search on Alibaba. Maybe that's an unfair assessment; sometimes when ordering a large volume of parts, you'll get entire batches that fail in the real world when they passed QA fine...

village-idiot 7y ago
What’s interesting is that Berkeley used some LEDs from the same company, and I assume they’re not facing the same budgetary pressure that Detroit was.
- mc32 7y ago
  The bay bridge project could have sourced the main steel parts for the eastern span replacement from US manufacturers but chose to go with a foundry in Shanghai. The USW, with all the pro-union talk in the Bay Area, cheap was chosen. Money talks.
  - ProfessorLayton 7y ago
    I don't know if cheap is the right word for a project with a 2,500% cost overrun[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco–Oakland_Bay_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco–Oakland_Bay_Brid...
- rconti 7y ago
  Cities are all facing budgetary pressure, or should be. We don't want them overspending arbitrarily. The vendor promised a certain warranty. If the due diligence was done, and the cities were happy with the price paid and the terms of the warranty, hopefully the vendor stands behind the product.
  - everybodyknows 7y ago
    So is the Detroit Public Lighting Authority: "We want to make sure that absolutely the taxpayers of the city are not being asked to pay anything more than they are legally obligated to." But: '"This deadline has come and gone, and Leotek ceased all communications with the PLA," the suit reads.' Company website has both: "Leotek Electronics USA LLC", and "Leotek is a subsidiary of LiteOn Technology Corp." https://leotek.com/about-leotek/ https://leotek.com/about-leotek/ IANAL, but that would seem to be a contradiction. I'd give generous odds on a bet that the end of Leotek, and Detroit's recovery efforts, are not far in the future.
    - stordoff 7y ago
      I don't see how it's a contradiction - it's the same as Google LLC being a subsidiary of Alphabet, and LEOTEK ELECTRONICS USA LLC is listed as a Sub-subsidiary in LiteOn's financial reports: https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/2017lite-on_en_0605_final上傳.pdf https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/2017lite-on... It appears the LLC was formed in 2014, after Leotek merged with LiteOn: https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d2132b2d-e257-4cbf-b859-ee519f88b208-19-liteon_2014annualrpt_0609(final上傳檔)(2)(2)(1).pdf https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d21...
- talboito 7y ago
  All of the lights in Berkeley are failing as well. They’re being replaced under warranty.
- rb808 7y ago
  Berkeley isn't cold af in the winter, maybe that helps.
  - Marsymars 7y ago
    I don't expect it would, generally heat reduces LED lifespan, but not cold. If it's really cold, LEDs will struggle to turn on, but AFAIK it doesn't cause any long-term damage. (You can get consumer LEDs designed to operate in very cold conditions, e.g. from FEIT.)
onetimemanytime 7y ago
Maybe both companies guaranteed the same performance. Am I wrong to think that not all is lost, all they need to do is change the bulb...and the major investments were the poles? Not trivial of course, but also not a total $180m loss
- beart 7y ago
  I imagine the primary cost is labor. These are street lights that can't just be swapped out in 30 seconds.
- buttcoinslol 7y ago
  The pole head needs to be swapped out, since the LED is integral to the fixture, not a swappable lamp. This requires boom trucks/lifts and that work cannot be performed hot, so shutdowns need to occur. There are thousands of lights. A union journeyman costs ~$65/hr in Detroit A 50/50 split between labor and materials isn't unusual for electrical work
coryrc 7y ago
Congratulations on not reading the article. They bought from multiple vendors, following procurement rules, from a company in San Jose, CA (and a division of Lite-On), from a company supplying lights across the country, and the design was flawed, not the parts. Don't blame them when you know nothing of the situation.
stordoff 7y ago
Leotek: > Founded in 1992 in California's Silicon Valley, Leotek is a leading global manufacturer of street, roadway, area and signal lighting products and solutions. Leotek streetlights were first designed and delivered in 2007 and the company now has more than 1.5 million installations across North America. > In 2013 Leotek established a manufacturing facility in San Jose, California. [...] Leotek's lighting products are subject to 100% 2-hour "burn-in" reliability testing and comprehensive performance testing prior to shipment. https://leotek.com/about-leotek/ https://leotek.com/about-leotek/
- AFascistWorld 7y ago
  >LEOTEK ELECTRONICS CORPORATION >中国·山东山东佳虹电子科技有限公司是由台湾1992年建厂的母公司—光林电子股份有限公司(LEOTEK ELECTRONICS CORPORATION)，经毛里求斯投资设立，专业从事LED应用产品研发及制造，属高科技型并拥有进出口权的生产企业。 #Shandong Jiahong Electronics. >研制、开发和生产新型电子元器件、电力电子元器件、光电器件、新型显示屏器件、发光二极管（LED）应用产品、LED交通信号产品、交通设备及相关电子产品，并销售公司上述所列自产产品。 #R&D and production. Oh that's a popular trick now, you'd think China would get around its bad reputation. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/lawsuit-3-5m-indiegogo-crowdfunded-drones-are-shoddy-not-delivered/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/lawsuit-3-5m-ind... Like this California startup Acumen Robot Intelligence is actually a Shenzhen company subsidized by its local government.
  - stordoff 7y ago
    I'm not sure what your point is. Both appear to be, or were, subsidiaries of Lite-On[1], and the point is that it's not a no-name company that is drop-shipping rejected parts. (The Chinese doesn't particularly help - I can't read much of it, and I can't find the source, so I'm unclear what relationship Shandong Jiahong has or had to Leotek) [1] 山東佳虹電子科技有限公司 is listed in this Lite-On document, as is Leotek: https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/file-ed4448eb-581f-47e6-bfb2-1bd5ea426b63-80-200902_2301_a02_20091117_102239.pdf https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/file-ed4448... - or an English version of what I believe to be the same report, showing Leotek and Sandong Jiahong Electronics Technology Co., Ltd: https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d2132b2d-e257-4cbf-b859-ee519f88b208-13-97q4合併英文報告(1).pdf https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d21... Shandong/Sandong/山東 has gone as of the next financial report (2009): https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d2132b2d-e257-4cbf-b859-ee519f88b208-14-光寶科98年度合併英文財報(1).pdf https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d21...

by cr0sh 7y ago

village-idiot 7y ago

What’s interesting is that Berkeley used some LEDs from the same company, and I assume they’re not facing the same budgetary pressure that Detroit was.

mc32 7y ago
The bay bridge project could have sourced the main steel parts for the eastern span replacement from US manufacturers but chose to go with a foundry in Shanghai. The USW, with all the pro-union talk in the Bay Area, cheap was chosen. Money talks.
- ProfessorLayton 7y ago
  I don't know if cheap is the right word for a project with a 2,500% cost overrun[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco–Oakland_Bay_Bridge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco–Oakland_Bay_Brid...
rconti 7y ago
Cities are all facing budgetary pressure, or should be. We don't want them overspending arbitrarily. The vendor promised a certain warranty. If the due diligence was done, and the cities were happy with the price paid and the terms of the warranty, hopefully the vendor stands behind the product.
- everybodyknows 7y ago
  So is the Detroit Public Lighting Authority: "We want to make sure that absolutely the taxpayers of the city are not being asked to pay anything more than they are legally obligated to." But: '"This deadline has come and gone, and Leotek ceased all communications with the PLA," the suit reads.' Company website has both: "Leotek Electronics USA LLC", and "Leotek is a subsidiary of LiteOn Technology Corp." https://leotek.com/about-leotek/ https://leotek.com/about-leotek/ IANAL, but that would seem to be a contradiction. I'd give generous odds on a bet that the end of Leotek, and Detroit's recovery efforts, are not far in the future.
  - stordoff 7y ago
    I don't see how it's a contradiction - it's the same as Google LLC being a subsidiary of Alphabet, and LEOTEK ELECTRONICS USA LLC is listed as a Sub-subsidiary in LiteOn's financial reports: https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/2017lite-on_en_0605_final上傳.pdf https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/2017lite-on... It appears the LLC was formed in 2014, after Leotek merged with LiteOn: https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d2132b2d-e257-4cbf-b859-ee519f88b208-19-liteon_2014annualrpt_0609(final上傳檔)(2)(2)(1).pdf https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d21...
talboito 7y ago
All of the lights in Berkeley are failing as well. They’re being replaced under warranty.
rb808 7y ago
Berkeley isn't cold af in the winter, maybe that helps.
- Marsymars 7y ago
  I don't expect it would, generally heat reduces LED lifespan, but not cold. If it's really cold, LEDs will struggle to turn on, but AFAIK it doesn't cause any long-term damage. (You can get consumer LEDs designed to operate in very cold conditions, e.g. from FEIT.)

onetimemanytime 7y ago

Maybe both companies guaranteed the same performance. Am I wrong to think that not all is lost, all they need to do is change the bulb...and the major investments were the poles? Not trivial of course, but also not a total $180m loss

beart 7y ago
I imagine the primary cost is labor. These are street lights that can't just be swapped out in 30 seconds.
buttcoinslol 7y ago
The pole head needs to be swapped out, since the LED is integral to the fixture, not a swappable lamp. This requires boom trucks/lifts and that work cannot be performed hot, so shutdowns need to occur. There are thousands of lights. A union journeyman costs ~$65/hr in Detroit A 50/50 split between labor and materials isn't unusual for electrical work

coryrc 7y ago

Congratulations on not reading the article. They bought from multiple vendors, following procurement rules, from a company in San Jose, CA (and a division of Lite-On), from a company supplying lights across the country, and the design was flawed, not the parts. Don't blame them when you know nothing of the situation.

stordoff 7y ago

Leotek: > Founded in 1992 in California's Silicon Valley, Leotek is a leading global manufacturer of street, roadway, area and signal lighting products and solutions. Leotek streetlights were first designed and delivered in 2007 and the company now has more than 1.5 million installations across North America. > In 2013 Leotek established a manufacturing facility in San Jose, California. [...] Leotek's lighting products are subject to 100% 2-hour "burn-in" reliability testing and comprehensive performance testing prior to shipment. https://leotek.com/about-leotek/ https://leotek.com/about-leotek/

AFascistWorld 7y ago
>LEOTEK ELECTRONICS CORPORATION >中国·山东山东佳虹电子科技有限公司是由台湾1992年建厂的母公司—光林电子股份有限公司(LEOTEK ELECTRONICS CORPORATION)，经毛里求斯投资设立，专业从事LED应用产品研发及制造，属高科技型并拥有进出口权的生产企业。 #Shandong Jiahong Electronics. >研制、开发和生产新型电子元器件、电力电子元器件、光电器件、新型显示屏器件、发光二极管（LED）应用产品、LED交通信号产品、交通设备及相关电子产品，并销售公司上述所列自产产品。 #R&D and production. Oh that's a popular trick now, you'd think China would get around its bad reputation. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/lawsuit-3-5m-indiegogo-crowdfunded-drones-are-shoddy-not-delivered/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/03/lawsuit-3-5m-ind... Like this California startup Acumen Robot Intelligence is actually a Shenzhen company subsidized by its local government.
- stordoff 7y ago
  I'm not sure what your point is. Both appear to be, or were, subsidiaries of Lite-On[1], and the point is that it's not a no-name company that is drop-shipping rejected parts. (The Chinese doesn't particularly help - I can't read much of it, and I can't find the source, so I'm unclear what relationship Shandong Jiahong has or had to Leotek) [1] 山東佳虹電子科技有限公司 is listed in this Lite-On document, as is Leotek: https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/file-ed4448eb-581f-47e6-bfb2-1bd5ea426b63-80-200902_2301_a02_20091117_102239.pdf https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/file-ed4448... - or an English version of what I believe to be the same report, showing Leotek and Sandong Jiahong Electronics Technology Co., Ltd: https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d2132b2d-e257-4cbf-b859-ee519f88b208-13-97q4合併英文報告(1).pdf https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d21... Shandong/Sandong/山東 has gone as of the next financial report (2009): https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d2132b2d-e257-4cbf-b859-ee519f88b208-14-光寶科98年度合併英文財報(1).pdf https://www.liteon.com/storage/document/document/engfile-d21...