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false. no matter how many times people say this your statement is incorrect. Consumers faced with higher prices will spend less and save more. Taxes are only

false. no matter how many times people say this your statement is incorrect. Consumers faced with higher prices will spend less and save more. Taxes are only applied to transactions. Higher tariffs will shift consumption to lower-priced goods - you say those goods don't exist? That's how new business and market opportunities arise. Production will shift geographies, as the tariffs are geography-specific. China's government is playing checkers, I never thought I would say this, and Trump is playing chess.

mooreds 7y ago
Both clauses are false? "Tariffs against China are actually a tax on the American citizens" is undeniably true. "Tariffs are a tax on imports. They're typically charged as a percentage of the transaction price that a buyer pays a foreign seller. Say an American retailer buys 100 garden umbrellas from China for $5 apiece, or $500. The U.S. tariff rate for the umbrellas is 6.5 percent for umbrellas. The retailer would have to pay a $32.50 tariff on the shipment, raising the total price from $500 to $532.50." - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-are-tariffs-and-how-would-they-work-trump-2018-06-02/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-are-tariffs-and-how-would-... The latter clause is a matter of second order effects that people can disagree with.
- teknopurge 7y ago
  You proved my point. Umbrella seller will sell fewer of those China-imported umbrellas. In comes African umbrella maker for $4 apiece.
  - mooreds 7y ago
    Actually, if the African umbrella maker could make a profit at $4, they would already be doing that, pre-tariff. So they are more likely selling at $5.15 (or some other higher number), which means that the US consumer pays an extra 15 cents per umbrella. That 15 cents is additional and what people refer to as a "tax", though it isn't a traditionally levied tax.
    - teknopurge 7y ago
      Markets are not perfectly efficient - this is why arbitrage exists. It likely will take some event, some slack, some inelegance for a business or entrepreneur to notice that the delta between that $5/umbrella and where they can figure out how to deliver it for $4 is worth spending time and attention on. Markets are not perfectly efficient. Markets are perfectly imperfect.
      - inflatableDodo 7y ago
        >Markets are perfectly imperfect. You should start writing speeches for Theresa May. This is the kind of guff she regularly comes out with.
        dang 7y ago
        Please don't break the site guidelines like this, regardless of how annoying another comment is or feels. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        inflatableDodo 7y ago
        Yeah, sorry. I think I managed to break a few there.
        hatchback176 7y ago
        Say whatever you want. The endgame for censorship types is to automate the process and remove the human element from online interactions.
        dang 7y ago
        Our idea here is to try to enhance the human element in online interactions, or at least to prevent it from destroying itself. If that isn't clear from the site guidelines, I'm not sure what would persuade you? All of them are meant sincerely. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - po 7y ago
    He didn't prove your point. You're not making sense. You agree with him except for the last point. The parent comment said: Tariffs against China are actually a tax on the American citizens, and only causes increased prices and unemployment. and as far as I can tell you believe: Tariffs against China are actually a tax on the American citizens, which causes increased prices and (eventually?) a shift to a different producer. but that's not the argument you're making.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    Are there other locations in the world that has either the current capacity or the ability to ramp up to that quickly and cheaply to match China's current production levels? Supply doesn't come out of nowhere, and America is a prodigious consumer.
  - civilitty 7y ago
    No he hasn't. You haven't proved that African umbrellas even exist for $4. If they did, we would have been buying them instead of the $5 chinese umbrella long ago, or at least the people who didnt want chinese umbrellas would have supported them.
- ALittleLight 7y ago
  Suppose the cost that the market will pay for umbrellas is X. Presumably the Chinese manufacturers have found X and set their prices accordingly and have profit Y per umbrella. Now the price increases by tariff Z - either fewer umbrellas will be sold or Y will decrease to mitigate price increase, or some combination of both. Tariffs are a tax on imports and in some sense have to be paid by the customer, but they are also a problem for the supplier.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  This reasoning is similar to Donna Brazile ordering radio ads in New Orleans and Chicago for Hillary on the theory people there will call up their relatives in swing states and remind them to vote
cmurf 7y ago
You ignore the degree of price inelasticity for the products China produces and exports to the U.S. If we were still in the TPP, the U.S. could still come out ahead, but once the U.S. withdrew, the remaining countries have been cutting deals with China. The question is whether those deals make up for the U.S. losses enough for China to weather the economic storm in the short term for a longer term gain. Global free trade benefited the American consumer by letting them keep more money in their pocket for other things through cheaper products. And these fake tariffs which China does not pay a dime of, are a regressive import tax that in that short term negatively impact the American consumer by taking money out of their pocket. It's not at all clear how the market will adjust. Or even if it can because Trump keeps changing his mind on rather important details. What he supposedly ultimately wants is "fair trade" as in no tariffs for anyone? I doubt that he's completely non-protectionist if it turns out some other country can simply out compete the U.S. But then what does 0% tariff/import tax actually translate into in terms of the geographic location for production? It definitely moves to the location with the cheapest net cost for labor and taxes. And that's not going to be the U.S. Which is fine, the American consumer still comes out ahead, but that is not at all compatible with the claims Trump makes about his notion of protectionism creating high paying American jobs. That is a fantasy on the face of it.

mooreds 7y ago

Both clauses are false? "Tariffs against China are actually a tax on the American citizens" is undeniably true. "Tariffs are a tax on imports. They're typically charged as a percentage of the transaction price that a buyer pays a foreign seller. Say an American retailer buys 100 garden umbrellas from China for $5 apiece, or $500. The U.S. tariff rate for the umbrellas is 6.5 percent for umbrellas. The retailer would have to pay a $32.50 tariff on the shipment, raising the total price from $500 to $532.50." - https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-are-tariffs-and-how-would-they-work-trump-2018-06-02/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-are-tariffs-and-how-would-... The latter clause is a matter of second order effects that people can disagree with.

teknopurge 7y ago
You proved my point. Umbrella seller will sell fewer of those China-imported umbrellas. In comes African umbrella maker for $4 apiece.
- mooreds 7y ago
  Actually, if the African umbrella maker could make a profit at $4, they would already be doing that, pre-tariff. So they are more likely selling at $5.15 (or some other higher number), which means that the US consumer pays an extra 15 cents per umbrella. That 15 cents is additional and what people refer to as a "tax", though it isn't a traditionally levied tax.
  - teknopurge 7y ago
    Markets are not perfectly efficient - this is why arbitrage exists. It likely will take some event, some slack, some inelegance for a business or entrepreneur to notice that the delta between that $5/umbrella and where they can figure out how to deliver it for $4 is worth spending time and attention on. Markets are not perfectly efficient. Markets are perfectly imperfect.
    - inflatableDodo 7y ago
      >Markets are perfectly imperfect. You should start writing speeches for Theresa May. This is the kind of guff she regularly comes out with.
      - dang 7y ago
        Please don't break the site guidelines like this, regardless of how annoying another comment is or feels. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        inflatableDodo 7y ago
        Yeah, sorry. I think I managed to break a few there.
        hatchback176 7y ago
        Say whatever you want. The endgame for censorship types is to automate the process and remove the human element from online interactions.
        dang 7y ago
        Our idea here is to try to enhance the human element in online interactions, or at least to prevent it from destroying itself. If that isn't clear from the site guidelines, I'm not sure what would persuade you? All of them are meant sincerely. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- po 7y ago
  He didn't prove your point. You're not making sense. You agree with him except for the last point. The parent comment said: Tariffs against China are actually a tax on the American citizens, and only causes increased prices and unemployment. and as far as I can tell you believe: Tariffs against China are actually a tax on the American citizens, which causes increased prices and (eventually?) a shift to a different producer. but that's not the argument you're making.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  Are there other locations in the world that has either the current capacity or the ability to ramp up to that quickly and cheaply to match China's current production levels? Supply doesn't come out of nowhere, and America is a prodigious consumer.
- civilitty 7y ago
  No he hasn't. You haven't proved that African umbrellas even exist for $4. If they did, we would have been buying them instead of the $5 chinese umbrella long ago, or at least the people who didnt want chinese umbrellas would have supported them.
ALittleLight 7y ago
Suppose the cost that the market will pay for umbrellas is X. Presumably the Chinese manufacturers have found X and set their prices accordingly and have profit Y per umbrella. Now the price increases by tariff Z - either fewer umbrellas will be sold or Y will decrease to mitigate price increase, or some combination of both. Tariffs are a tax on imports and in some sense have to be paid by the customer, but they are also a problem for the supplier.
selimthegrim 7y ago
This reasoning is similar to Donna Brazile ordering radio ads in New Orleans and Chicago for Hillary on the theory people there will call up their relatives in swing states and remind them to vote

cmurf 7y ago

You ignore the degree of price inelasticity for the products China produces and exports to the U.S. If we were still in the TPP, the U.S. could still come out ahead, but once the U.S. withdrew, the remaining countries have been cutting deals with China. The question is whether those deals make up for the U.S. losses enough for China to weather the economic storm in the short term for a longer term gain. Global free trade benefited the American consumer by letting them keep more money in their pocket for other things through cheaper products. And these fake tariffs which China does not pay a dime of, are a regressive import tax that in that short term negatively impact the American consumer by taking money out of their pocket. It's not at all clear how the market will adjust. Or even if it can because Trump keeps changing his mind on rather important details. What he supposedly ultimately wants is "fair trade" as in no tariffs for anyone? I doubt that he's completely non-protectionist if it turns out some other country can simply out compete the U.S. But then what does 0% tariff/import tax actually translate into in terms of the geographic location for production? It definitely moves to the location with the cheapest net cost for labor and taxes. And that's not going to be the U.S. Which is fine, the American consumer still comes out ahead, but that is not at all compatible with the claims Trump makes about his notion of protectionism creating high paying American jobs. That is a fantasy on the face of it.