4 ms·

I find it really hard to digest such stories coming from the the first world with so many regulations/laws/a functioning system/educated people etc. Imagine th

I find it really hard to digest such stories coming from the the first world with so many regulations/laws/a functioning system/educated people etc. Imagine the state of the 3rd world developing countries..

King-Aaron 7y ago
I find it interesting that there's a disproportionately large amount of these kinds of stories that come out of the US (compared to other western countries). As you said, there should be enough educated/financially able/motivated people in these areas that would mobilize and do something about it.
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  My theory is they probably work full-time, and do not have the time or monies to lobby at the state and local level.
- hef19898 7y ago
  Tells a lot about regulations and their enforcement in the US I think.
- ajxs 7y ago
  > ...there should be enough educated/financially able/motivated people in these areas that would mobilize and do something about it. I beg to differ with this point. If you're an educated person not looking to work in a blue collar job your economic prospects in areas like this are limited. The technically inclined and the otherwise ambitious move away to seek better opportunities elsewhere. I lived in a small industrial city for a while many years ago and saw this phenomena for myself. Those who were able left in their teens to major economic centers for tertiary education and considered going back home worse than a death sentence. What was left in the wake of this phenomena was a creeping ghetto, an economic wasteland that only begat more poverty.
  - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
    I think you're being a little too extreme. A lot of people leave for the money and would return if they could but they can't because there's no money.
    - germinalphrase 7y ago
      Which... is pretty much what he’s saying? If all those who can command a higher wage leave (and don’t return), the local economy becomes hollow and a creeping ghetto sets in.
      - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        I read it as more of a "they actually like it better in the rich cities" which many people do not. Specifically the sentence "the people who could left in their teens to major economic centers for tertiary education and considered going back home worse than a death sentence." If a nuke were dropped on SF tomorrow there's a large number of people who would be like "welp, I'm out of a job but this is a perfect opportunity to move back to BFE". The same goes for every major city. There's a reason all (for smaller than average values of "all) the wall street types move either upstate or to Florida once they've become rich enough that they can either let their career coast or retire.
      - Spooky23 7y ago
        It’s worse than that... whole states are experiencing brain drain. As agriculture continues its consolidation, significant parts of the country are losing anyone who can leave.
- sgift 7y ago
  > I find it interesting that there's a disproportionately large amount of these kinds of stories that come out of the US (compared to other western countries). From what I gathered this is rooted in the difference between the regulatory principles of the US and most other Western countries. In Europe you usually have to proof first that whatever you do will be reasonably safe, then you can do it. In the US you can do many things without someone checking first, but if it's later shown that you harmed someone you have to pay damages and/or people will be send to prison.
- mac01021 7y ago
  Not many countries are anywhere near as big as the US, and those that are mostly have similar issues. I think a part of the problem is that, for someone in a little town like the one in the article, regulatory authorities and the federal legislature are peopled largely with individuals who reside a thousand miles away. That just can't happen in basically any European country.
  - moorhosj 7y ago
    This seems like a bit of a cop-out. States and municipalities have regulatory power and are much closer to citizens. Many states are roughly the size of European countries.
    - mac01021 7y ago
      Perhaps the state of LA has the power to stop this pollution, but the residents lobbying for help from regulators， as depicted in the article, seem to be focusing their attention on the federal EPA. Unless I accidentally skipped a paragraph that talked about lobbying at a regional level. If the state doesn't lack the teeth to fix this, why would they choose to compete for federal attention with an order of magnitude more people?
      - moorhosj 7y ago
        ==If the state doesn't lack the teeth to fix this, why would they choose to compete for federal attention with an order of magnitude more people?== I'm not sure, Louisiana does have a Department of Environmental Quality [1]. In Illinois we had a similar issue play out this year. The Governor is the one who ended up banning the plant's use of ethylene oxide [2]. It looks an obscure state law allowed for that action: "Invoking rarely used authority in state law, Illinois EPA Director John Kim prohibited Sterigenics from pumping ethylene oxide gas into massive chambers used to sterilize medical equipment, pharmaceutical drugs, spices and food." [1] https://deq.louisiana.gov/ https://deq.louisiana.gov/ [2] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-pritzker-sterigenics-shutdown-willowbrook-20190215-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-pr...
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  The US is big enough for the wealthier people to move away to nicer areas.
hef19898 7y ago
It was the same in the heavily industrialized parts of Germany till the 80s or so. There was a documentary covering the history of these sites. And the oral history part of it was just shocking. Like certain departments being known as the "blood pissers" because basically everyone working there for too long got bladder cancer. Or the fact that it was normal that people just vanished during their shift because they fell into melted iron and nobody realized until shift end. But what even shocked me more than these stories was how people thought about them. Somewhere between pride and it-is-just-like-that. From all levels, workers, managers, chemists with PhDs, their families...
- paganel 7y ago
  > It was the same in the heavily industrialized parts of Germany till the 80s or so Like you very well pointed out, most of that industry and the associated pollution has moved further East. As a citizen of such an Eastern European country I was unpleasantly surprised to feel the air suddenly tasting "chemical" as I was driving on a highway in Transylvania, near a town called Sebes. Sure enough, I then soon found an article of the local residents complaining about a chemical company polluting the air they breath (in here [1], article in Romanian, unfortunately). The culprit is an Austrian (not German, but closed enough) company called Kronospan, and on its wiki page [2] one can see that its latest investment was made in Belarus, presumably only a dictatorship still allows this sort of thing to go unchecked. The same wiki page also details some pollution-related incidents for which the company was responsible in Wales in the early 2000s, that is in another relatively poor area like the Southern US states mentioned in the article. [1] https://casajurnalistului.ro/kronospanik/ https://casajurnalistului.ro/kronospanik/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronospan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronospan
  - mauvehaus 7y ago
    Industries moving as local populations wise up to the health problems they cause has been going on for a long time. The book Toms River[0] briefly covers the history of the synthetic dye industry from its inception in Germany, moving to Cincinnati, OH, and subsequently to Toms River, NJ (then a sleepy backwater location). The book is highly worth a read, and I was thinking about some of the outcomes in the book when I read the article and comments on Scientists Rise Up Against Statistical Significance[1] here. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toms_River_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toms_River_(book) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19445827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19445827
stevenwoo 7y ago
Lousiana is particularly bad, but there is a huge stretch of I-10 in Texas from east Houston to the border leading into Lousiana that is lined with chemical plants that make things worse - I drove it about 30 years ago. It took 10 weeks after a river turned completely black from dumping for officials in Texas to do anything. https://www.texastribune.org/2019/04/17/texas-attorney-general-sues-inland-recylcling-and-remediation/ https://www.texastribune.org/2019/04/17/texas-attorney-gener... Also in Texas - large companies have eminent domain rights on private property - this probably is going to lead to pipelines through the Hill Country (near Austin) in a few years in spite of most of the open space there being in individual owner's hands. https://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/permian-highway-pipeline-oil-industry-landowners/ https://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/permian-highway-pipeli...

King-Aaron 7y ago

I find it interesting that there's a disproportionately large amount of these kinds of stories that come out of the US (compared to other western countries). As you said, there should be enough educated/financially able/motivated people in these areas that would mobilize and do something about it.

dillonmckay 7y ago
My theory is they probably work full-time, and do not have the time or monies to lobby at the state and local level.
hef19898 7y ago
Tells a lot about regulations and their enforcement in the US I think.
ajxs 7y ago
> ...there should be enough educated/financially able/motivated people in these areas that would mobilize and do something about it. I beg to differ with this point. If you're an educated person not looking to work in a blue collar job your economic prospects in areas like this are limited. The technically inclined and the otherwise ambitious move away to seek better opportunities elsewhere. I lived in a small industrial city for a while many years ago and saw this phenomena for myself. Those who were able left in their teens to major economic centers for tertiary education and considered going back home worse than a death sentence. What was left in the wake of this phenomena was a creeping ghetto, an economic wasteland that only begat more poverty.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  I think you're being a little too extreme. A lot of people leave for the money and would return if they could but they can't because there's no money.
  - germinalphrase 7y ago
    Which... is pretty much what he’s saying? If all those who can command a higher wage leave (and don’t return), the local economy becomes hollow and a creeping ghetto sets in.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      I read it as more of a "they actually like it better in the rich cities" which many people do not. Specifically the sentence "the people who could left in their teens to major economic centers for tertiary education and considered going back home worse than a death sentence." If a nuke were dropped on SF tomorrow there's a large number of people who would be like "welp, I'm out of a job but this is a perfect opportunity to move back to BFE". The same goes for every major city. There's a reason all (for smaller than average values of "all) the wall street types move either upstate or to Florida once they've become rich enough that they can either let their career coast or retire.
    - Spooky23 7y ago
      It’s worse than that... whole states are experiencing brain drain. As agriculture continues its consolidation, significant parts of the country are losing anyone who can leave.
sgift 7y ago
> I find it interesting that there's a disproportionately large amount of these kinds of stories that come out of the US (compared to other western countries). From what I gathered this is rooted in the difference between the regulatory principles of the US and most other Western countries. In Europe you usually have to proof first that whatever you do will be reasonably safe, then you can do it. In the US you can do many things without someone checking first, but if it's later shown that you harmed someone you have to pay damages and/or people will be send to prison.
mac01021 7y ago
Not many countries are anywhere near as big as the US, and those that are mostly have similar issues. I think a part of the problem is that, for someone in a little town like the one in the article, regulatory authorities and the federal legislature are peopled largely with individuals who reside a thousand miles away. That just can't happen in basically any European country.
- moorhosj 7y ago
  This seems like a bit of a cop-out. States and municipalities have regulatory power and are much closer to citizens. Many states are roughly the size of European countries.
  - mac01021 7y ago
    Perhaps the state of LA has the power to stop this pollution, but the residents lobbying for help from regulators， as depicted in the article, seem to be focusing their attention on the federal EPA. Unless I accidentally skipped a paragraph that talked about lobbying at a regional level. If the state doesn't lack the teeth to fix this, why would they choose to compete for federal attention with an order of magnitude more people?
    - moorhosj 7y ago
      ==If the state doesn't lack the teeth to fix this, why would they choose to compete for federal attention with an order of magnitude more people?== I'm not sure, Louisiana does have a Department of Environmental Quality [1]. In Illinois we had a similar issue play out this year. The Governor is the one who ended up banning the plant's use of ethylene oxide [2]. It looks an obscure state law allowed for that action: "Invoking rarely used authority in state law, Illinois EPA Director John Kim prohibited Sterigenics from pumping ethylene oxide gas into massive chambers used to sterilize medical equipment, pharmaceutical drugs, spices and food." [1] https://deq.louisiana.gov/ https://deq.louisiana.gov/ [2] https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-pritzker-sterigenics-shutdown-willowbrook-20190215-story.html https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-pr...
maxxxxx 7y ago
The US is big enough for the wealthier people to move away to nicer areas.

hef19898 7y ago

It was the same in the heavily industrialized parts of Germany till the 80s or so. There was a documentary covering the history of these sites. And the oral history part of it was just shocking. Like certain departments being known as the "blood pissers" because basically everyone working there for too long got bladder cancer. Or the fact that it was normal that people just vanished during their shift because they fell into melted iron and nobody realized until shift end. But what even shocked me more than these stories was how people thought about them. Somewhere between pride and it-is-just-like-that. From all levels, workers, managers, chemists with PhDs, their families...

paganel 7y ago
> It was the same in the heavily industrialized parts of Germany till the 80s or so Like you very well pointed out, most of that industry and the associated pollution has moved further East. As a citizen of such an Eastern European country I was unpleasantly surprised to feel the air suddenly tasting "chemical" as I was driving on a highway in Transylvania, near a town called Sebes. Sure enough, I then soon found an article of the local residents complaining about a chemical company polluting the air they breath (in here [1], article in Romanian, unfortunately). The culprit is an Austrian (not German, but closed enough) company called Kronospan, and on its wiki page [2] one can see that its latest investment was made in Belarus, presumably only a dictatorship still allows this sort of thing to go unchecked. The same wiki page also details some pollution-related incidents for which the company was responsible in Wales in the early 2000s, that is in another relatively poor area like the Southern US states mentioned in the article. [1] https://casajurnalistului.ro/kronospanik/ https://casajurnalistului.ro/kronospanik/ [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronospan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kronospan
- mauvehaus 7y ago
  Industries moving as local populations wise up to the health problems they cause has been going on for a long time. The book Toms River[0] briefly covers the history of the synthetic dye industry from its inception in Germany, moving to Cincinnati, OH, and subsequently to Toms River, NJ (then a sleepy backwater location). The book is highly worth a read, and I was thinking about some of the outcomes in the book when I read the article and comments on Scientists Rise Up Against Statistical Significance[1] here. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toms_River_(book) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toms_River_(book) [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19445827 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19445827

stevenwoo 7y ago

Lousiana is particularly bad, but there is a huge stretch of I-10 in Texas from east Houston to the border leading into Lousiana that is lined with chemical plants that make things worse - I drove it about 30 years ago. It took 10 weeks after a river turned completely black from dumping for officials in Texas to do anything. https://www.texastribune.org/2019/04/17/texas-attorney-general-sues-inland-recylcling-and-remediation/ https://www.texastribune.org/2019/04/17/texas-attorney-gener... Also in Texas - large companies have eminent domain rights on private property - this probably is going to lead to pipelines through the Hill Country (near Austin) in a few years in spite of most of the open space there being in individual owner's hands. https://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/permian-highway-pipeline-oil-industry-landowners/ https://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/permian-highway-pipeli...