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It's my understanding that a hacking incident that principally contributes to injury/death can justify a kinetic response. Hacking incidents with kinetic effec

It's my understanding that a hacking incident that principally contributes to injury/death can justify a kinetic response. Hacking incidents with kinetic effects are only rare outliers today, but that could change tomorrow. Kinetic deterrence & reprisal for hacking incidents is a legitimate option, but ripe for significant abuse if allowed without clear attribution of hack and/or link to related kinetic effects. Much like how terrorism is(or should be) mostly a law enforcement function. Hacking should be as well. But planning for exceptions is also important. Especially planning to ensure exceptions don't become the norm.

seymourbuttes 7y ago
>Kinetic response >Kinetic deterrence & reprisal Bombing
PavlovsCat 7y ago
From the story here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19834802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19834802 > They claimed it housed Hamas cyber operatives, which had been engaging in a cyberattack against Israel's "cyberspace." > "We were ahead of them all the time," said Brigadier General D., the head of the IDF's cyber defense division. "The moment they tried to do something, they failed." > Israeli officials did not disclose any details about the Hamas cyberattack; however, they said they first stopped the attack online, and only then responded with an air strike. No details, at all, except that they had already stopped the attack, and from things like "ahead of them all the time", it doesn't exactly sound like they didn't know any other way to prevent injury or death other than to level the building. > But planning for exceptions is also important. Just because they killed people doesn't mean that it was an exceptional case that required it, so I would start there.
- chriselles 7y ago
  I’m generally pro Israel. But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific issues/incidents. In this case, it certainly sounds like a very serious and incongruent disconnect between the public affairs officer for Cyber and the actual kinetic response. The Israelis have always been pretty quick to kill or capture not only leadership, but technical talent. In this case, if I had to guess, there was a rare opportunity to hit apex and/or volume technical talent the IDF justified by the rocket attacks and/or it’s signalling that moving forward insurgent cyber will be considered a valid target for kinetic action. It’s also worth mentioning that the people targeted may not be hackers, but social media camapigners/influencers.
  - PavlovsCat 7y ago
    > But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific issues/incidents. It rather seemed you came up with a rationalization for the deed just because it was done. Presented with facts, you don't skip a beat either. > In this case, if I had to guess That's the thing, you don't have to. So why do you? And what's with the weasel words like "kinetic action"? If someone mistook someone you loved for a threat and killed them, and someone else just said "oh yeah, they've always been quick to capture or kill people", and "this may be signalling that going forward people mistaken for threat are considered a valid target for physical removal", would you like that? > Every powerful state relies on specialists whose task is to show that what the strong do is noble and just and, if the weak suffer, it is their fault. In the West, these specialists are called "intellectuals" and, with marginal exceptions, they fulfill their task with skill and self-righteousness, however outlandish the claims, in this practice that traces back to the origins of recorded history. -- Noam Chomsky When I said "start there", I meant start with the deed. Start with the principles, and if you would like them to be applied to you and people you love. There are things we cannot bless. We can support them, but that just degrades us, it doesn't enoble these things one bit. > People who call themselves supporters of Israel are actually supporters of its moral degeneration and ultimate destruction. -- Noam Chomsky I rather consider Yeshayahu Leibowitz "pro Israel" -- in a sense of supporting the heart, body and soul, not just the body come what may -- just like I would have considered Sophie School "pro Germany", not "anti Germany". Principles, and applying them equally, and not having double standards, those are real, being pro this or that is just rhetoric.
    - chriselles 7y ago
      I’m not rationalising what has happened. I’m clinically describing it. I don’t have skin in this particular “game” so I’m emotionally detached. Feel free to change kinetic action to violence, death, or murder. I’ve seen and experienced enough conflict up close and personal so I hope you don’t think my remarks are flippant. It’s not my fight. I’m simply describing what should be obvious extensions of violence by one group of humans directed at another, based on their behaviour in a new domain(digital). Leveraging a new domain(digital) as a weapon(cyber/information operations) can expect to have weapons from across other domains(air land sea space) used to detect, deter, destroy them. My posting doesn’t equate to agreeing with all of it. But based on consistent human behaviour of one tribe towards another, isn’t shock in seeing it more than a bit naive?
- chachachoney 7y ago
  It's a sad thing that weaponized honeypots are likely something we'll be hearing about in the near future...

seymourbuttes 7y ago

>Kinetic response >Kinetic deterrence & reprisal Bombing

PavlovsCat 7y ago

From the story here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19834802 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19834802 > They claimed it housed Hamas cyber operatives, which had been engaging in a cyberattack against Israel's "cyberspace." > "We were ahead of them all the time," said Brigadier General D., the head of the IDF's cyber defense division. "The moment they tried to do something, they failed." > Israeli officials did not disclose any details about the Hamas cyberattack; however, they said they first stopped the attack online, and only then responded with an air strike. No details, at all, except that they had already stopped the attack, and from things like "ahead of them all the time", it doesn't exactly sound like they didn't know any other way to prevent injury or death other than to level the building. > But planning for exceptions is also important. Just because they killed people doesn't mean that it was an exceptional case that required it, so I would start there.

chriselles 7y ago
I’m generally pro Israel. But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific issues/incidents. In this case, it certainly sounds like a very serious and incongruent disconnect between the public affairs officer for Cyber and the actual kinetic response. The Israelis have always been pretty quick to kill or capture not only leadership, but technical talent. In this case, if I had to guess, there was a rare opportunity to hit apex and/or volume technical talent the IDF justified by the rocket attacks and/or it’s signalling that moving forward insurgent cyber will be considered a valid target for kinetic action. It’s also worth mentioning that the people targeted may not be hackers, but social media camapigners/influencers.
- PavlovsCat 7y ago
  > But quite happy to criticise them when and where warranted on specific issues/incidents. It rather seemed you came up with a rationalization for the deed just because it was done. Presented with facts, you don't skip a beat either. > In this case, if I had to guess That's the thing, you don't have to. So why do you? And what's with the weasel words like "kinetic action"? If someone mistook someone you loved for a threat and killed them, and someone else just said "oh yeah, they've always been quick to capture or kill people", and "this may be signalling that going forward people mistaken for threat are considered a valid target for physical removal", would you like that? > Every powerful state relies on specialists whose task is to show that what the strong do is noble and just and, if the weak suffer, it is their fault. In the West, these specialists are called "intellectuals" and, with marginal exceptions, they fulfill their task with skill and self-righteousness, however outlandish the claims, in this practice that traces back to the origins of recorded history. -- Noam Chomsky When I said "start there", I meant start with the deed. Start with the principles, and if you would like them to be applied to you and people you love. There are things we cannot bless. We can support them, but that just degrades us, it doesn't enoble these things one bit. > People who call themselves supporters of Israel are actually supporters of its moral degeneration and ultimate destruction. -- Noam Chomsky I rather consider Yeshayahu Leibowitz "pro Israel" -- in a sense of supporting the heart, body and soul, not just the body come what may -- just like I would have considered Sophie School "pro Germany", not "anti Germany". Principles, and applying them equally, and not having double standards, those are real, being pro this or that is just rhetoric.
  - chriselles 7y ago
    I’m not rationalising what has happened. I’m clinically describing it. I don’t have skin in this particular “game” so I’m emotionally detached. Feel free to change kinetic action to violence, death, or murder. I’ve seen and experienced enough conflict up close and personal so I hope you don’t think my remarks are flippant. It’s not my fight. I’m simply describing what should be obvious extensions of violence by one group of humans directed at another, based on their behaviour in a new domain(digital). Leveraging a new domain(digital) as a weapon(cyber/information operations) can expect to have weapons from across other domains(air land sea space) used to detect, deter, destroy them. My posting doesn’t equate to agreeing with all of it. But based on consistent human behaviour of one tribe towards another, isn’t shock in seeing it more than a bit naive?
chachachoney 7y ago
It's a sad thing that weaponized honeypots are likely something we'll be hearing about in the near future...