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I'm pretty confident in saying Microsoft has zero intention of running Linux directly on the bare-metal serving as the driver layer for Windows. This is nothin

I'm pretty confident in saying Microsoft has zero intention of running Linux directly on the bare-metal serving as the driver layer for Windows. This is nothing more than a way for Microsoft to provide a *NIX userspace competitive with Apple, you know, so developers actually consider using their products instead of Apple's. Edit: We're actually in the midst of quite the opposite happening with the Linux kernel. After Android pivots to Fuchsia/Zircon, it'll only be a matter of time before Linux running on the bare-metal outside of datacenters will be exclusively the niche domain of Raspberry Pi style tinkerer devices and the tiny population of Linux enthusiasts running them on increasingly poorly supported PCs. PC owners will be increasingly less compelled to bother even trying a Linux installation when their OEM Windows install already contains it as a compatibility shim. This all translates into Linux's native support for modern desktops and laptops deteriorating for lack of users, I fear it's not going to be a growing market.

squiggleblaz 7y ago
Your edit isn't fair. I mean, if you ignore Android (where you hardly get to interact with Linux - even from a copyright perspective, Android Linuxes have rarely been Linux, since too many companies don't release the source of their binary blobs), then Linux on the desktop has always been relatively niche. I am surprised that you could seriously suggest that the market for Linux on the desktops and laptops was even commercially viable (you say "I feal it's not growing to be a growing market"). When I started using Linux, it was basically people writing stuff for themself and releasing it to everyone. That actually seems like a fundamentally good goal. So what else could you want?
pjmlp 7y ago
Had Microsoft improved their POSIX support on NT, instead of having it as nuisance to win contracts, and GNU/Linux would had never taken off.
jchw 7y ago
Wow, I can’t think of a future I’d like less. Thankfully this is nonsense ;) It is true that desktop Linux users are a niche case. Hell, I would not be surprised if that niche got smaller, even; but I have some pretty intense doubts that it’s dying or even going in that direction. In fact I would argue that the desktop platform as a whole has been on a decline, whereas desktop Linux has merely stagnated. The average user who is either gaming or just Facebooking on Windows PCs are finding increasingly less use out of their desktops. The gaming market on PC is healthy, but it’s cracking: the fragmentation of PC game stores and the increasing power and versatility of game consoles probably poses a threat in the long term. For all other use cases, mobile operating systems like iOS and Android are rapidly becoming not only usable, but preferable. Banking on my iPhone feels like the future, compared to the shoddy web UIs full of age old cruft. So Microsoft has made wonderful strides for developers using Windows. No sarcasm here; I’ve been developing software on Windows since Visual C++6 and it’s been nothing but improvements. But I develop software for servers and browsers. The Microsoft ecosystem does not appeal to me. .NET Core is great but there’s still a lot of work to go and it’s reaching maturity in a world where we have amazing languages like Go and Rust. I have still dabbled a bit in .NET Core and I’m impressed, but they would’ve probably had more success if it had kicked off years earlier than it did. So what’s going on with Linux? Frankly, quite a lot! - Wayland is finally reaching maturity, slowly. For now, this is causing loads of problems, but as those issues clear up it’s looking like this might finally work out! - Valve continues to improve Steam, with integrated Windows emulation. It’ll never be a substitute for real ports, but it’s still cool. - The reproducibility and immutability bug has bit a few hands. New, advanced distributions like GuixSD and NixOS offer a pretty unique, extremely predictable experience (even if that predictable experience is not exactly compatible with the full range of existing software.) Fedora has rolled out OStree-based system upgrades too, which is awesome. This is one of those things where desktop Linux was really awful that is becoming a strength. - There is apparently genuine demand for OEM Linux. We see not one, but two vendors that appear to be thriving: Purism, and System76. I want one of those darn Helios boxes just to look nice in the living room (and yes, I run Linux in the living room, and it’s been way less horrible than I would’ve imagined.) (There’s more; like btrfs and other innovations that benefit desktop AND server use cases) There’s more. And it goes without saying that there have also been negatives. Like graphics drivers from our green logoed friends. But by and large, I’ve had a great past decade with Linux. Aside from a small audio issue, my desktops have been free of any hardware compatibility issues throughout upgrades. Intel offers GPU passthrough that you can use in your KVM boxes for better virtualization. AMD IOMMU is reliable for nearly any Ryzen setup (got a GPU passthrough setup going great over here, and it didn’t even take a whole weekend to set up.) Is Linux dying? Hell no. Is it the year of the Linux desktop? Also no. These claims both come up constantly and neither ever materialize. Desktop Linux has its niche and it probably will for the foreseeable future. Don’t extrapolate the ebb and flow too far.
- collyw 7y ago
  Really? Maybe its because I work with biologists, but I have seen more and more non-techies with Linux desktops in recent years.
vthriller 7y ago
> PC owners will be increasingly less compelled to bother even trying a Linux installation when their OEM Windows install already contains it as a compatibility shim. There is still a plenty of reasons to avoid Windows, from privacy concerns (telemetry anyone?) to cost (sure, OEM is cheap but there are laptops that can be purchased OS-free for less. Also, there's virtually no such thing as OEM Windows in custom PC builds).

squiggleblaz 7y ago

Your edit isn't fair. I mean, if you ignore Android (where you hardly get to interact with Linux - even from a copyright perspective, Android Linuxes have rarely been Linux, since too many companies don't release the source of their binary blobs), then Linux on the desktop has always been relatively niche. I am surprised that you could seriously suggest that the market for Linux on the desktops and laptops was even commercially viable (you say "I feal it's not growing to be a growing market"). When I started using Linux, it was basically people writing stuff for themself and releasing it to everyone. That actually seems like a fundamentally good goal. So what else could you want?

pjmlp 7y ago

Had Microsoft improved their POSIX support on NT, instead of having it as nuisance to win contracts, and GNU/Linux would had never taken off.

jchw 7y ago

Wow, I can’t think of a future I’d like less. Thankfully this is nonsense ;) It is true that desktop Linux users are a niche case. Hell, I would not be surprised if that niche got smaller, even; but I have some pretty intense doubts that it’s dying or even going in that direction. In fact I would argue that the desktop platform as a whole has been on a decline, whereas desktop Linux has merely stagnated. The average user who is either gaming or just Facebooking on Windows PCs are finding increasingly less use out of their desktops. The gaming market on PC is healthy, but it’s cracking: the fragmentation of PC game stores and the increasing power and versatility of game consoles probably poses a threat in the long term. For all other use cases, mobile operating systems like iOS and Android are rapidly becoming not only usable, but preferable. Banking on my iPhone feels like the future, compared to the shoddy web UIs full of age old cruft. So Microsoft has made wonderful strides for developers using Windows. No sarcasm here; I’ve been developing software on Windows since Visual C++6 and it’s been nothing but improvements. But I develop software for servers and browsers. The Microsoft ecosystem does not appeal to me. .NET Core is great but there’s still a lot of work to go and it’s reaching maturity in a world where we have amazing languages like Go and Rust. I have still dabbled a bit in .NET Core and I’m impressed, but they would’ve probably had more success if it had kicked off years earlier than it did. So what’s going on with Linux? Frankly, quite a lot! - Wayland is finally reaching maturity, slowly. For now, this is causing loads of problems, but as those issues clear up it’s looking like this might finally work out! - Valve continues to improve Steam, with integrated Windows emulation. It’ll never be a substitute for real ports, but it’s still cool. - The reproducibility and immutability bug has bit a few hands. New, advanced distributions like GuixSD and NixOS offer a pretty unique, extremely predictable experience (even if that predictable experience is not exactly compatible with the full range of existing software.) Fedora has rolled out OStree-based system upgrades too, which is awesome. This is one of those things where desktop Linux was really awful that is becoming a strength. - There is apparently genuine demand for OEM Linux. We see not one, but two vendors that appear to be thriving: Purism, and System76. I want one of those darn Helios boxes just to look nice in the living room (and yes, I run Linux in the living room, and it’s been way less horrible than I would’ve imagined.) (There’s more; like btrfs and other innovations that benefit desktop AND server use cases) There’s more. And it goes without saying that there have also been negatives. Like graphics drivers from our green logoed friends. But by and large, I’ve had a great past decade with Linux. Aside from a small audio issue, my desktops have been free of any hardware compatibility issues throughout upgrades. Intel offers GPU passthrough that you can use in your KVM boxes for better virtualization. AMD IOMMU is reliable for nearly any Ryzen setup (got a GPU passthrough setup going great over here, and it didn’t even take a whole weekend to set up.) Is Linux dying? Hell no. Is it the year of the Linux desktop? Also no. These claims both come up constantly and neither ever materialize. Desktop Linux has its niche and it probably will for the foreseeable future. Don’t extrapolate the ebb and flow too far.

collyw 7y ago
Really? Maybe its because I work with biologists, but I have seen more and more non-techies with Linux desktops in recent years.

vthriller 7y ago

> PC owners will be increasingly less compelled to bother even trying a Linux installation when their OEM Windows install already contains it as a compatibility shim. There is still a plenty of reasons to avoid Windows, from privacy concerns (telemetry anyone?) to cost (sure, OEM is cheap but there are laptops that can be purchased OS-free for less. Also, there's virtually no such thing as OEM Windows in custom PC builds).