8 ms·

Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

41 points by mediawatch 7y ago

lilulo 7y ago
From the article: - "The attack on this building was part of other offensive operations that took place after Hamas was alleged to have fired rockets into Israel over the weekend." "Alleged", right, there were aliens firing rockets on Israel. There is nobody else to fire the rockets. Only Hamas has them. And placement of the "offensive" as a response on firing rockets at the Israel's civilians. Looks like this is very offensive to protect your civilians!
- aptidude187 7y ago
  The rule across all media is to always precede reports of Israeli killing of Palestinians in Gaza with a number of rockets, even if 24 hours before said rockets Israel has snipered unarmed protestors attempting to practise their Right of Return as guaranteed by UN Resolution 194. Anyone who has an iota of knowledge about what's going on there knows that continuous building of settlements by Israel and the daily harassment the Palestinians have to endure is the root of the problem.[0] I truly wonder if there's anyone who isn't completely ignorant on the issue, who still buys the zionist talking points. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU
  - lilulo 7y ago
    You just throw in anti-Israel propaganda regardless to what I've just said. Any comment will do. And this is going beyond accusing the state. You say "zionist talking points", - this is a pure anti-Semitism.
    - aptidude187 7y ago
      Where exactly are your arguments tho? Accusing people of being anti-semitic neither makes them anti-semitic nor does it make you automatically right on the issue. The burden of proof is upon the accuser, you. The anti-semitism card really lost its power because you cried wolf falsely too many times, as illustrated here.
      - lilulo 7y ago
        Using "zionist" as a derogatory term makes you a racist in a first place. And, because it shows your hatred towards jewish people, it make you anti-Semitic.
        aptidude187 7y ago
        That's complete nonsense. Not that I used "zionist as a derogatory term" to being with, but even if I did, that wouldn't make me a racist, because zionism is a nationalistic ideology, you like to conflate with judaism in order to be able to silence any criticism of unjust actions by falsely accusing people of being anti-semitic. There are probably even more evangelical christian zionists than one might expect, does that make me christianophobic as well, or is the victimhood only reserved for people from your group? Either way, I love the jewish people, but I oppose injustice, your 'arguments' are really childish.
        CommanderData 7y ago
        Opposing a state does not equate to having "hatred" of Jewish people. To no surprise, Israel with its history and conception will warrant criticism and even disgust from anyone. The same goes for any other state that acts similarly. My feeling are not exclusive to Israel, stealing land (to the degree of perfection) and oppressing minorities daily is pretty telling of Israels precieved superiority over others.
        bradleyhb 7y ago
        “Stealing land” is how, through economic disparity, most modern nations have been born and grown, has it not?
        acct1771 7y ago
        Now you two are moving the goalposts if this meta-thread.
    - chachachoney 7y ago
      Do you have any evidence that there were actually rockets fired from the building which housed the attackers? If so, please solidify your point and contribute to the discussion by providing it. Equating criticism of either Israel or Zionism with anti-Semitism does real disservice to the victims of actual anti-Semitism both past and present.
      - yostrovs 7y ago
        Do you really know there is a war in Israel? Did you see it? Do you even consider firing of hundreds of rockets at Jews a war?
        chachachoney 7y ago
        > Do you really know there is a war in Israel? Did you see it? Do you even consider firing of hundreds of rockets at Jews a war? If this were a turing test, the above message would fail. Is this really how you approach discourse on a forum? Hypertext was invented for the purpose of annotating documents (and now conversations) with links to other sources. Also, falling back on an epistemological crisis in a discussion such as this is a bad faith argument. Good day.
  - kmlx 7y ago
    this is such a long and convoluted conflict... israel withdrew from gaza in 2005, but kept control of access points, air travel etc making gaza a weird place, partly under israel control. hamas (basically a terrorist org) literally took over gaza from fatah (a nationalist party) in a war in 2007. then you’ve got the islamic jihadis, a bonafide terror org, which started taking over from hamas, in the same gaza strip. both hamas and islamic jihadis want the annihilation of the state of israel. i see no end in sight to the bloodshed, no matter how many civilians die. but i do understand why people would side with israel when it comes to gaza, and side with the palestinians when it comes to occupied territories.
    - aptidude187 7y ago
      "this is such a long and convoluted conflict" - Not really, this is just a simple case of settler colonialism, anyone who claims that this is a "complex" conflict is either ignorant or deliberately trying to confuse people. Recommended reading from Theodor Herzl (founding father of zionism) to Noam Chomsky (secular jewish intellectual) for those who are truly interested in the facts: The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat), (1896) [https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog] On Palestine - Noam Chomsky [https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-Chomsky/dp/1608464709/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=On+Palestine&qid=1557203766&s=books&sr=1-1 https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-Chomsky/dp/1608464709/...] The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe (jewish historian) [https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=The+Ethnic+Cleansing+of+Palestine&qid=1557203807&s=gateway&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe...]
      - jsmith99 7y ago
        I would hesitate to include Ilan Pappe in that list - his academic career is somewhat controversial. https://newrepublic.com/article/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dishonest-historian https://newrepublic.com/article/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dish...
      - nir 7y ago
        Usually people who see things as "simple" when most consider them complex are either extremely smart or extremely shallow. Providing Ilan Pappe as a serious source tells where you are in that range.
- aaron695 7y ago
  > "Alleged", right, there were aliens firing rockets on Israel. 'Islamic Jihad' is reported to have fired rockets, why are you claiming these reports are incorrect? https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Hundreds-of-Gaza-rockets-rain-down-on-Israel-continuous-coverage-588811 https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Hundreds-of-Gaza... They have even admitted to accidentally killing a baby on their side on Telegraph - https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Islamic-Jihad-admits-baby-pregnant-woman-killed-by-their-own-rockets-589001 https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Islamic-Jihad-ad...
CommanderData 7y ago
So it's okay these days to 'label' a building filled with civilians a 'hacking' hub and blow it up? No trial. No checks. No questions asked. Wow.
- kmlx 7y ago
  from the israelis point of view they’re just defending themselves against terrorists. from the terrorists point of view, the destruction of the state of israel is worth sacrificing lives.
- meirdavis 7y ago
  What country puts their enemy on trial during warfare before killing them?
- toyg 7y ago
  The Israel-Palestine conflict runs by its own rules, or rather lack thereof. With the exception of nuclear holocaust, if there is a line or threshold to cross, you can bet someone involved in that problem has already crossed it. It’s like humanity felt obliged to have a reference implementation of all the worst behaviour it might engage in, conveniently located at the intersection of three continents.
WheelsAtLarge 7y ago
Everyone seems to be missing an important point here, especially for HN users. Hackers and anyone supporting them are now live bomb targets. Hackers are no longer punished by just putting them in jail. Death is a punishment option too. In the past, they were collateral damage now they are a direct target.
- kmlx 7y ago
  the argument is that they were/are terrorists. which is partly true, hamas and islamic jihadis control gaza, want the destruction of the state of israel and are classified as terrorist orgs.
- gizmo686 7y ago
  ... if you are living in a de-facto warzone where both sides had already escalated to bombings. If the hacker was based in Iran, I doubt Israel would have anywhere near the same reaction.
  - chriselles 7y ago
    It's worth noting that a number of Iranian's involved with Iran's nuclear program were the victims of targeted assassination in Iran. Israel has also aggressively targeted engineers back in the 80's/90's reportedly involved in asymmetric weapon design/engineering(prior to advent of easier cross border info sharing). Perhaps hacking tool developers would also be similarly targeted, or already have been?
- chriselles 7y ago
  It's my understanding that a hacking incident that principally contributes to injury/death can justify a kinetic response. Hacking incidents with kinetic effects are only rare outliers today, but that could change tomorrow. Kinetic deterrence & reprisal for hacking incidents is a legitimate option, but ripe for significant abuse if allowed without clear attribution of hack and/or link to related kinetic effects. Much like how terrorism is(or should be) mostly a law enforcement function. Hacking should be as well. But planning for exceptions is also important. Especially planning to ensure exceptions don't become the norm.
meirdavis 7y ago
It's pathetic watching people from the safety of their own homes commenting on how Israel should be waging war. Israelis are being killed and if Hamas had their way they would go over the border and massacre all Israelis in sight. No other democracy is currently fighting a war against a neighbor that's shooting missiles at them and located only a few km from 80% of their population. Israel's use of kid gloves against the Palestinians just emboldens them and encourages more cycles of violence.
- aptidude187 7y ago
  Poor Israel, can't even dehumanise, colonise a people, drive them out of their homes and kill them without being criticised. You are dishing out the same old washed out propaganda and people know it's utter bullshit. Israel is the coloniser and the oppressor no matter how hard you push your propaganda, people can see the evidence from too many sources now, even secular jewish ones. Israeli Solider testimony [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU] "The Lobby" - Documentary exposing the vile and venomous smearing tactics of the Israeli lobby (undercover reporter is jewish) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc] The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat), (1896) [https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog] On Palestine - Noam Chomsky [https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-Chomsky/dp/1608464709/... https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-Chomsky/dp/1608464709/...] The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe (jewish historian) [https://www.amazon.com/The-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Palestine/dp/B077KDH396/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=ethnic+cleansing+palestine&qid=1557211694&s=gateway&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/The-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Palestine/dp/...]
  - meirdavis 7y ago
    We left Gaza. There are no Israelis left in Gaza. It's not occupied. Now that we can see what happens when we give the Palestinians territory, we won't be doing that again.
  - kmlx 7y ago
    what's up with this infantilism that's going around in your posts? you know this is a complex issue, but still prefer to ignore the facts. seems to me you have an agenda.
toyg 7y ago
Am I the only one to see echoes of Cold War stories, with spies and spymasters respecting each other and The Game more than they do their own military personnel...? It’s like Smiley had been told Karla’s office was purposefully bombed. If humans ever managed to eventually move most or all conflicts to cyber methods, would that make us more civilized? Are we turning war into a game of bits, or are we tainting the networked Utopia with our never-extinguished bestial instincts?
- rvp-x 7y ago
  The cold war was not honorable. You let non-US/soviets do the actual fighting. In almost every other conflict on the world, the US and Soviets were picking sides and supporting militants. Millions were killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Cold_War_proxy_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Cold_War_pr...
  - toyg 7y ago
    "You" who? I'm Italian, and from a city (Bologna) who suffered hundreds of casualties as a result of being on the actual front line of the Cold War. Of course all wars are dirty, in one way or the other; but there is a spectrum, and there was certainly an element of honour code in a lot of the spying activities going on in Europe at the time - particularly in places like Germany and England.
chriselles 7y ago
The official IDF Twitter account @IDF posted something rather distasteful about the attack: “CLEARED FOR RELEASE: We thwarted an attempted Hamas cyber offensive against Israeli targets. Following our successful cyber defensive operation, we targeted a building where the Hamas cyber operatives work. HamasCyberHQ.exe has been removed.” Counterproductive and narrative losing if you ask me.
- yostrovs 7y ago
  This is distasteful only if you think of Hamas as worthy of receiving sympathy. They cut the throats of eight year old children. They fire hundreds of rockets at civilian areas. They keep their own population in dire poverty. They choose extreme religious goals over a better life for their people. I celebrate their destruction. The world is a better place without them.
  - bsaul 7y ago
    I completely agree with your point, but OP has also a valid point. The brutality of the situation on the terrain (for the last one hundred year) makes people living there be extremely blunt and down-to-earth. And so saying like "target eliminated, good riddance" when the target in question has tried to kill you numerous times feels completely natural. However, IDF (and israel public relation in general) is also trying to win the public opinion's hearth. And then it's a completely different audience. Most people in the west haven't experienced violence in any kind of direct way. They generally despise violence and killing above everything (which is a good thing). So whenever Israel (or israelis) speaks publicaly, they should never forget that people on the receiving end aren't as hardened and "pragmatic" as they are. Note that this is becoming less and less true as the west is also becoming a target or radical islam terrorists. But the order of magnitude remains completely different.
    - yostrovs 7y ago
      I see your point. On the other hand Jews are sick of having to be constantly judged by others, others who are no better than them, and usually ones that are extremely ignorant. For centuries Jews have tried to keep quiet, keep their happiness/sadness to themselves, stay out of the way of the gentiles. That didn't work. The Israeli Jew is a different Jew, who is proud and will fight when necessary. That's just how it is now and the new Jew won't be constantly succumbing to the desires of ignorant antisemites.
anotherthro313 7y ago
Israel in trying to prevent history from repeating itself, is repeating this history onto others. The JDF murdered a friend of mine 20 years ago for the crime of protesting. They didn't even give her the dignity of a bullet or a bomb. They just ran her over with a bulldozer then later spit on her body. We couldn't give her an open casket funeral and Israel charged her family $20k for processing her "crimes" and shipping her body back to the USA. This is how Israel functions now, it doesn't matter if you're a terrorist or not, they will kill anybody who defies them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie
rvp-x 7y ago
The replies are somewhat ignorant of the nature of the Hamas-Israel conflict. It assumes that the building was populated during the bombing, which is usually not the case when blowing up buildings in a civilian area. Too high risk of hitting bystanders.

41 points by mediawatch 7y ago

From the article: - "The attack on this building was part of other offensive operations that took place after Hamas was alleged to have fired rockets into Israel over the weekend." "Alleged", right, there were aliens firing rockets on Israel. There is nobody else to fire the rockets. Only Hamas has them. And placement of the "offensive" as a response on firing rockets at the Israel's civilians. Looks like this is very offensive to protect your civilians!

aptidude187 7y ago
The rule across all media is to always precede reports of Israeli killing of Palestinians in Gaza with a number of rockets, even if 24 hours before said rockets Israel has snipered unarmed protestors attempting to practise their Right of Return as guaranteed by UN Resolution 194. Anyone who has an iota of knowledge about what's going on there knows that continuous building of settlements by Israel and the daily harassment the Palestinians have to endure is the root of the problem.[0] I truly wonder if there's anyone who isn't completely ignorant on the issue, who still buys the zionist talking points. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU
- lilulo 7y ago
  You just throw in anti-Israel propaganda regardless to what I've just said. Any comment will do. And this is going beyond accusing the state. You say "zionist talking points", - this is a pure anti-Semitism.
  - aptidude187 7y ago
    Where exactly are your arguments tho? Accusing people of being anti-semitic neither makes them anti-semitic nor does it make you automatically right on the issue. The burden of proof is upon the accuser, you. The anti-semitism card really lost its power because you cried wolf falsely too many times, as illustrated here.
    - lilulo 7y ago
      Using "zionist" as a derogatory term makes you a racist in a first place. And, because it shows your hatred towards jewish people, it make you anti-Semitic.
      - aptidude187 7y ago
        That's complete nonsense. Not that I used "zionist as a derogatory term" to being with, but even if I did, that wouldn't make me a racist, because zionism is a nationalistic ideology, you like to conflate with judaism in order to be able to silence any criticism of unjust actions by falsely accusing people of being anti-semitic. There are probably even more evangelical christian zionists than one might expect, does that make me christianophobic as well, or is the victimhood only reserved for people from your group? Either way, I love the jewish people, but I oppose injustice, your 'arguments' are really childish.
      - CommanderData 7y ago
        Opposing a state does not equate to having "hatred" of Jewish people. To no surprise, Israel with its history and conception will warrant criticism and even disgust from anyone. The same goes for any other state that acts similarly. My feeling are not exclusive to Israel, stealing land (to the degree of perfection) and oppressing minorities daily is pretty telling of Israels precieved superiority over others.
        bradleyhb 7y ago
        “Stealing land” is how, through economic disparity, most modern nations have been born and grown, has it not?
        acct1771 7y ago
        Now you two are moving the goalposts if this meta-thread.
  - chachachoney 7y ago
    Do you have any evidence that there were actually rockets fired from the building which housed the attackers? If so, please solidify your point and contribute to the discussion by providing it. Equating criticism of either Israel or Zionism with anti-Semitism does real disservice to the victims of actual anti-Semitism both past and present.
    - yostrovs 7y ago
      Do you really know there is a war in Israel? Did you see it? Do you even consider firing of hundreds of rockets at Jews a war?
      - chachachoney 7y ago
        > Do you really know there is a war in Israel? Did you see it? Do you even consider firing of hundreds of rockets at Jews a war? If this were a turing test, the above message would fail. Is this really how you approach discourse on a forum? Hypertext was invented for the purpose of annotating documents (and now conversations) with links to other sources. Also, falling back on an epistemological crisis in a discussion such as this is a bad faith argument. Good day.
- kmlx 7y ago
  this is such a long and convoluted conflict... israel withdrew from gaza in 2005, but kept control of access points, air travel etc making gaza a weird place, partly under israel control. hamas (basically a terrorist org) literally took over gaza from fatah (a nationalist party) in a war in 2007. then you’ve got the islamic jihadis, a bonafide terror org, which started taking over from hamas, in the same gaza strip. both hamas and islamic jihadis want the annihilation of the state of israel. i see no end in sight to the bloodshed, no matter how many civilians die. but i do understand why people would side with israel when it comes to gaza, and side with the palestinians when it comes to occupied territories.
  - aptidude187 7y ago
    "this is such a long and convoluted conflict" - Not really, this is just a simple case of settler colonialism, anyone who claims that this is a "complex" conflict is either ignorant or deliberately trying to confuse people. Recommended reading from Theodor Herzl (founding father of zionism) to Noam Chomsky (secular jewish intellectual) for those who are truly interested in the facts: The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat), (1896) [https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog] On Palestine - Noam Chomsky [https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-Chomsky/dp/1608464709/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=On+Palestine&qid=1557203766&s=books&sr=1-1 https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-Chomsky/dp/1608464709/...] The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe (jewish historian) [https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=The+Ethnic+Cleansing+of+Palestine&qid=1557203807&s=gateway&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe...]
    - jsmith99 7y ago
      I would hesitate to include Ilan Pappe in that list - his academic career is somewhat controversial. https://newrepublic.com/article/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dishonest-historian https://newrepublic.com/article/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dish...
    - nir 7y ago
      Usually people who see things as "simple" when most consider them complex are either extremely smart or extremely shallow. Providing Ilan Pappe as a serious source tells where you are in that range.
aaron695 7y ago
> "Alleged", right, there were aliens firing rockets on Israel. 'Islamic Jihad' is reported to have fired rockets, why are you claiming these reports are incorrect? https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Hundreds-of-Gaza-rockets-rain-down-on-Israel-continuous-coverage-588811 https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Hundreds-of-Gaza... They have even admitted to accidentally killing a baby on their side on Telegraph - https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Islamic-Jihad-admits-baby-pregnant-woman-killed-by-their-own-rockets-589001 https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Islamic-Jihad-ad...

CommanderData 7y ago

So it's okay these days to 'label' a building filled with civilians a 'hacking' hub and blow it up? No trial. No checks. No questions asked. Wow.

kmlx 7y ago
from the israelis point of view they’re just defending themselves against terrorists. from the terrorists point of view, the destruction of the state of israel is worth sacrificing lives.
meirdavis 7y ago
What country puts their enemy on trial during warfare before killing them?
toyg 7y ago
The Israel-Palestine conflict runs by its own rules, or rather lack thereof. With the exception of nuclear holocaust, if there is a line or threshold to cross, you can bet someone involved in that problem has already crossed it. It’s like humanity felt obliged to have a reference implementation of all the worst behaviour it might engage in, conveniently located at the intersection of three continents.

WheelsAtLarge 7y ago

Everyone seems to be missing an important point here, especially for HN users. Hackers and anyone supporting them are now live bomb targets. Hackers are no longer punished by just putting them in jail. Death is a punishment option too. In the past, they were collateral damage now they are a direct target.

kmlx 7y ago
the argument is that they were/are terrorists. which is partly true, hamas and islamic jihadis control gaza, want the destruction of the state of israel and are classified as terrorist orgs.
gizmo686 7y ago
... if you are living in a de-facto warzone where both sides had already escalated to bombings. If the hacker was based in Iran, I doubt Israel would have anywhere near the same reaction.
- chriselles 7y ago
  It's worth noting that a number of Iranian's involved with Iran's nuclear program were the victims of targeted assassination in Iran. Israel has also aggressively targeted engineers back in the 80's/90's reportedly involved in asymmetric weapon design/engineering(prior to advent of easier cross border info sharing). Perhaps hacking tool developers would also be similarly targeted, or already have been?
chriselles 7y ago
It's my understanding that a hacking incident that principally contributes to injury/death can justify a kinetic response. Hacking incidents with kinetic effects are only rare outliers today, but that could change tomorrow. Kinetic deterrence & reprisal for hacking incidents is a legitimate option, but ripe for significant abuse if allowed without clear attribution of hack and/or link to related kinetic effects. Much like how terrorism is(or should be) mostly a law enforcement function. Hacking should be as well. But planning for exceptions is also important. Especially planning to ensure exceptions don't become the norm.

meirdavis 7y ago

It's pathetic watching people from the safety of their own homes commenting on how Israel should be waging war. Israelis are being killed and if Hamas had their way they would go over the border and massacre all Israelis in sight. No other democracy is currently fighting a war against a neighbor that's shooting missiles at them and located only a few km from 80% of their population. Israel's use of kid gloves against the Palestinians just emboldens them and encourages more cycles of violence.

aptidude187 7y ago
Poor Israel, can't even dehumanise, colonise a people, drive them out of their homes and kill them without being criticised. You are dishing out the same old washed out propaganda and people know it's utter bullshit. Israel is the coloniser and the oppressor no matter how hard you push your propaganda, people can see the evidence from too many sources now, even secular jewish ones. Israeli Solider testimony [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkxJd88xkBU] "The Lobby" - Documentary exposing the vile and venomous smearing tactics of the Israeli lobby (undercover reporter is jewish) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceCOhdgRBoc] The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat), (1896) [https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog https://archive.org/details/ajewishstateana00aviggoog] On Palestine - Noam Chomsky [https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-Chomsky/dp/1608464709/... https://www.amazon.com/Palestine-Noam-Chomsky/dp/1608464709/...] The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe (jewish historian) [https://www.amazon.com/The-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Palestine/dp/B077KDH396/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=ethnic+cleansing+palestine&qid=1557211694&s=gateway&sr=8-1 https://www.amazon.com/The-Ethnic-Cleansing-of-Palestine/dp/...]
- meirdavis 7y ago
  We left Gaza. There are no Israelis left in Gaza. It's not occupied. Now that we can see what happens when we give the Palestinians territory, we won't be doing that again.
- kmlx 7y ago
  what's up with this infantilism that's going around in your posts? you know this is a complex issue, but still prefer to ignore the facts. seems to me you have an agenda.

toyg 7y ago

Am I the only one to see echoes of Cold War stories, with spies and spymasters respecting each other and The Game more than they do their own military personnel...? It’s like Smiley had been told Karla’s office was purposefully bombed. If humans ever managed to eventually move most or all conflicts to cyber methods, would that make us more civilized? Are we turning war into a game of bits, or are we tainting the networked Utopia with our never-extinguished bestial instincts?

rvp-x 7y ago
The cold war was not honorable. You let non-US/soviets do the actual fighting. In almost every other conflict on the world, the US and Soviets were picking sides and supporting militants. Millions were killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Cold_War_proxy_wars https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Cold_War_pr...
- toyg 7y ago
  "You" who? I'm Italian, and from a city (Bologna) who suffered hundreds of casualties as a result of being on the actual front line of the Cold War. Of course all wars are dirty, in one way or the other; but there is a spectrum, and there was certainly an element of honour code in a lot of the spying activities going on in Europe at the time - particularly in places like Germany and England.

chriselles 7y ago

The official IDF Twitter account @IDF posted something rather distasteful about the attack: “CLEARED FOR RELEASE: We thwarted an attempted Hamas cyber offensive against Israeli targets. Following our successful cyber defensive operation, we targeted a building where the Hamas cyber operatives work. HamasCyberHQ.exe has been removed.” Counterproductive and narrative losing if you ask me.

yostrovs 7y ago
This is distasteful only if you think of Hamas as worthy of receiving sympathy. They cut the throats of eight year old children. They fire hundreds of rockets at civilian areas. They keep their own population in dire poverty. They choose extreme religious goals over a better life for their people. I celebrate their destruction. The world is a better place without them.
- bsaul 7y ago
  I completely agree with your point, but OP has also a valid point. The brutality of the situation on the terrain (for the last one hundred year) makes people living there be extremely blunt and down-to-earth. And so saying like "target eliminated, good riddance" when the target in question has tried to kill you numerous times feels completely natural. However, IDF (and israel public relation in general) is also trying to win the public opinion's hearth. And then it's a completely different audience. Most people in the west haven't experienced violence in any kind of direct way. They generally despise violence and killing above everything (which is a good thing). So whenever Israel (or israelis) speaks publicaly, they should never forget that people on the receiving end aren't as hardened and "pragmatic" as they are. Note that this is becoming less and less true as the west is also becoming a target or radical islam terrorists. But the order of magnitude remains completely different.
  - yostrovs 7y ago
    I see your point. On the other hand Jews are sick of having to be constantly judged by others, others who are no better than them, and usually ones that are extremely ignorant. For centuries Jews have tried to keep quiet, keep their happiness/sadness to themselves, stay out of the way of the gentiles. That didn't work. The Israeli Jew is a different Jew, who is proud and will fight when necessary. That's just how it is now and the new Jew won't be constantly succumbing to the desires of ignorant antisemites.

anotherthro313 7y ago

Israel in trying to prevent history from repeating itself, is repeating this history onto others. The JDF murdered a friend of mine 20 years ago for the crime of protesting. They didn't even give her the dignity of a bullet or a bomb. They just ran her over with a bulldozer then later spit on her body. We couldn't give her an open casket funeral and Israel charged her family $20k for processing her "crimes" and shipping her body back to the USA. This is how Israel functions now, it doesn't matter if you're a terrorist or not, they will kill anybody who defies them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

rvp-x 7y ago

The replies are somewhat ignorant of the nature of the Hamas-Israel conflict. It assumes that the building was populated during the bombing, which is usually not the case when blowing up buildings in a civilian area. Too high risk of hitting bystanders.