4 ms·

This. I was thinking the same thing. I would not be shocked if MS switched Windows to a Linux kernel. It would save them billions in R&D and support.

qqn 7y ago
Embrace, extend... exist?
thunderbong 7y ago
You're kidding, right? Do you have any idea of the Windows userbase?
- MagicPropmaker 7y ago
  Exactly. Windows 10 is a much better operating system than Linux for a broad range of applications, and the desktop. I develop on Windows 10, and am quite happy using a VM (not WSL) for my Centos development.
  - microwavecamera 7y ago
    Are you talking about desktop applications? Windows 10 like every version of Windows going back to NT is built around a Hardware Abstraction Layer and separates userland from the kernel while providing a platform agnostic API. There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't which is my point. Why spend billions on R&D for something you can get for free? Case in point, MacOS/OSX. Apple figured that out a long time ago and it obviously worked for them.
    - chx 7y ago
      > There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't There is, for laptop/desktop: almost all of those run a Windows kernel thus most money for laptop/desktop device driver support is going towards supporting the Windows kernel. Technically... it's a difficult discussion but it's irrelevant. Noone is running a bare kernel.
      - MagicPropmaker 7y ago
        The Linux Kernel is a 60s era monolithic architecture. Windows 10 is a modern microkernel. So, of course, the Linux "kernel" has more stuff in it. But that means that every driver and feature has to be carefully compiled in. It's no wonder there are far more audio, video, and specialized drivers on Windows 10.
        chx 7y ago
        Windows 10 is a hybrid kernel. https://stackoverflow.com/q/19365184/308851 https://stackoverflow.com/q/19365184/308851 Microsoft itself called the NT 3.1 kernel a "macrokernel". https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions//cc750820(v=technet.10) https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions//cc750820... If you look at the Other Wiki, you will find even Mac OS is not a microkernel. http://wiki.c2.com/?MicroKernel http://wiki.c2.com/?MicroKernel > XNU is not a MicroKernel, it is a kernel obtained by merging the Mach MicroKernel with parts of the BSD kernel and parts specific to Darwin, all running in kernel space. OKL4 is the most widely deployed pure microkernel in Qualcomm phone modems and Apple's Secure Enclave coprocessor. It is possible OKL4 is the most widespread OS, in fact.
    - zvrba 7y ago
      > There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't which is my point. Oh there is. Like pervasive ACLs on all kernel objects, e.g., processes. User-ids (SIDs) based on a distributed authority model rather than a simple int. Then there's asynchronous IO that's still not usable in Linux. Etc, etc...
- microwavecamera 7y ago
  What? Why would that be a factor? It's a kernel. Why would it make a difference if the Windows desktop ran on a different kernel? MS has rolled out several different kernels over the history of Windows, why would it be any different? Just like OP mentioned look at MS switching Edge to the Chromium backend. To the user there's isn't a real difference. It's still Edge.
  - nitemice 7y ago
    Except most of the unique features of Edge are gone. Maybe not all, but plenty of users will notice a difference in Edge when the Chromium version rolls out. Plus, word on the street is Microsoft's motivation to move to Chromium was totally different to that: it was a performance decision. Too many apps were using Electron, and the only way to improve their performance was to intregrate it into the OS.
    - microwavecamera 7y ago
      >Maybe not all, but plenty of users will notice >Plus, word on the street is Come on, don't just start spewing a bunch of weasel words. It's fine if you disagree me and I won't downvote you if you do (I never downvote people for that reason) but at least put some effort into it. > Too many apps were using Electron, and the only way to improve their performance was to intregrate it into the OS. Well why wouldn't they just build out the Edge backend to be compatible with node.js to natively support the Electron API? Because it a waste of time and R&D money when Chromium does all that already and more with minimal cost. Why reinvent the wheel when you can get a run-flat radial tire for free?
  - naikrovek 7y ago
    Microsoft sell Windows partly on the promise of backwards compatibility. A Linux kernel would destroy any real backwards compatibility possibilities, with prejudice. There are 1,000 privately developed and privately run Windows apps for every publicly available application, and those private applications are the backbone of businesses around the world. A Linux kernel would render a VERY large portion of those inoperable, even with WINE. A Windows with a Linux kernel will never replace traditional Windows. Some Microsoft OS may live alongside traditional Windows, at some point however, and it is unlikely to be Linux at all. There are lots of kernel architectures out there besides the ones that Linux and Windows use.

qqn 7y ago

Embrace, extend... exist?

thunderbong 7y ago

You're kidding, right? Do you have any idea of the Windows userbase?

MagicPropmaker 7y ago
Exactly. Windows 10 is a much better operating system than Linux for a broad range of applications, and the desktop. I develop on Windows 10, and am quite happy using a VM (not WSL) for my Centos development.
- microwavecamera 7y ago
  Are you talking about desktop applications? Windows 10 like every version of Windows going back to NT is built around a Hardware Abstraction Layer and separates userland from the kernel while providing a platform agnostic API. There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't which is my point. Why spend billions on R&D for something you can get for free? Case in point, MacOS/OSX. Apple figured that out a long time ago and it obviously worked for them.
  - chx 7y ago
    > There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't There is, for laptop/desktop: almost all of those run a Windows kernel thus most money for laptop/desktop device driver support is going towards supporting the Windows kernel. Technically... it's a difficult discussion but it's irrelevant. Noone is running a bare kernel.
    - MagicPropmaker 7y ago
      The Linux Kernel is a 60s era monolithic architecture. Windows 10 is a modern microkernel. So, of course, the Linux "kernel" has more stuff in it. But that means that every driver and feature has to be carefully compiled in. It's no wonder there are far more audio, video, and specialized drivers on Windows 10.
      - chx 7y ago
        Windows 10 is a hybrid kernel. https://stackoverflow.com/q/19365184/308851 https://stackoverflow.com/q/19365184/308851 Microsoft itself called the NT 3.1 kernel a "macrokernel". https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions//cc750820(v=technet.10) https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/previous-versions//cc750820... If you look at the Other Wiki, you will find even Mac OS is not a microkernel. http://wiki.c2.com/?MicroKernel http://wiki.c2.com/?MicroKernel > XNU is not a MicroKernel, it is a kernel obtained by merging the Mach MicroKernel with parts of the BSD kernel and parts specific to Darwin, all running in kernel space. OKL4 is the most widely deployed pure microkernel in Qualcomm phone modems and Apple's Secure Enclave coprocessor. It is possible OKL4 is the most widespread OS, in fact.
  - zvrba 7y ago
    > There isn't anything the Windows kernel can do that the Linux or a BSD kernel can't which is my point. Oh there is. Like pervasive ACLs on all kernel objects, e.g., processes. User-ids (SIDs) based on a distributed authority model rather than a simple int. Then there's asynchronous IO that's still not usable in Linux. Etc, etc...
microwavecamera 7y ago
What? Why would that be a factor? It's a kernel. Why would it make a difference if the Windows desktop ran on a different kernel? MS has rolled out several different kernels over the history of Windows, why would it be any different? Just like OP mentioned look at MS switching Edge to the Chromium backend. To the user there's isn't a real difference. It's still Edge.
- nitemice 7y ago
  Except most of the unique features of Edge are gone. Maybe not all, but plenty of users will notice a difference in Edge when the Chromium version rolls out. Plus, word on the street is Microsoft's motivation to move to Chromium was totally different to that: it was a performance decision. Too many apps were using Electron, and the only way to improve their performance was to intregrate it into the OS.
  - microwavecamera 7y ago
    >Maybe not all, but plenty of users will notice >Plus, word on the street is Come on, don't just start spewing a bunch of weasel words. It's fine if you disagree me and I won't downvote you if you do (I never downvote people for that reason) but at least put some effort into it. > Too many apps were using Electron, and the only way to improve their performance was to intregrate it into the OS. Well why wouldn't they just build out the Edge backend to be compatible with node.js to natively support the Electron API? Because it a waste of time and R&D money when Chromium does all that already and more with minimal cost. Why reinvent the wheel when you can get a run-flat radial tire for free?
- naikrovek 7y ago
  Microsoft sell Windows partly on the promise of backwards compatibility. A Linux kernel would destroy any real backwards compatibility possibilities, with prejudice. There are 1,000 privately developed and privately run Windows apps for every publicly available application, and those private applications are the backbone of businesses around the world. A Linux kernel would render a VERY large portion of those inoperable, even with WINE. A Windows with a Linux kernel will never replace traditional Windows. Some Microsoft OS may live alongside traditional Windows, at some point however, and it is unlikely to be Linux at all. There are lots of kernel architectures out there besides the ones that Linux and Windows use.