4 ms·

I hope this will get shut down at the constitutional court. No matter how you stand towards vaccinations. You can not force sovereign citizens to undergo any me

by sprash 7y ago

I hope this will get shut down at the constitutional court. No matter how you stand towards vaccinations. You can not force sovereign citizens to undergo any medical treatment in a free country. What is next? Mandatory sterilization of people with undesired traits? The Slippery slope starts here.

seattle_spring 7y ago
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope
crazygorilla 7y ago
It could also backfire to force the people to do it. Maybe there are people who refuse the vaccinations now because they are not allowed to choose on their own anymore.
maze-le 7y ago
Right, they shouldn't be fined for refusing to vaccinate, they should be fined for endangering the life of their kids and others with this reckless behaviour.
- ponow 7y ago
  "Reckless"? You mean sub-optimal. Sure, if the issue is spreading disease people outside one's family, then fine away. But choices whose primary consequences are to be borne by the family, ought to stay within the family. Actually, a reasonable starting fine is the expected cost of healthcare outside the family due to non-immunization by the family.
  - maze-le 7y ago
    No I do mean "reckless". It is one thing to have no knowledge about a topic and act accordingly, it's quite another to be in active denial about a topic that has been proven again and again. >> Actually, a reasonable starting fine is the expected cost of healthcare outside the family due to non-immunization by the family. Well, its damn hard for anyone immunocompromised (under immunosuppressive therapy or by disease). They have a higher chance of dying, a death that could be prevented if herd immunity would be reached. They are not just a costly externality.
    - convolvatron 7y ago
      it would be so much easier if we could just assign a dollar amount to each human life. then the insurance industry could perform its normal risk-management function. since clearly all lives dont have the same economic value, and the market is really the only effective process to ascribe such a value - slavery is really most natural framework to sort all this out. as a plus, we also dont have to have all those stupid discussions about trollies and track switches anymore.
  - fzeroracer 7y ago
    Okay, let's take your argument to the extreme. You say that choices whose primary consequences are to be born by the family ought to stay with the family. With that logic established, do you believe violence against family members is permitted? How about psychological harm or abuse? Your logic doesn't hold up because we've established that certain things are Bad regardless if it's self-contained within a family unit. Ergo, vaccinations should be included as something that should be included. Avoiding vaccinations I argue is tantamount to child abuse.
- seattle_spring 7y ago
  Why in the hell was this comment flagged, and why can't I vouch for it?
  - maze-le 7y ago
    Apparently using reason and holding people accountable is too controversial these days. Btw I didn't meant it snarky or sarcastic, I meant it as it stands there. Not doing a medical procedure is not a good reason to drag someone on front of a court, bodily harm by negligence is...
heavenlyblue 7y ago
>> Mandatory sterilization of people with undesired traits? The Slippery slope starts here. I don't want to be funny here, but I am pretty sure if you took the people who don't want to vaccinate their children and the people who would like to sterilize the "god-damn-migrants" - there will be a significant overlap. It's not a slippery slope. We're not living in Wild West any more - the population is growing and lack of vaccinations is becoming more of an issue than in a more sparsely populated past.
- hodr 7y ago
  If you don't want to be funny, how about you go for accurate? The recent anti-vax movement (not to be confused with the religious groups that have always been anti-vaccination) is very much a product of the far left. Completely opposite side of the political spectrum from those who most vehemently oppose migrants.
  - detaro 7y ago
    I see examples pretty much all over the place, and certainly not centered around what's "far left" in Germany.
scarejunba 7y ago
Jacobson vs Massachusetts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts Already resolved in America, at least, with good arguments
- stmfreak 7y ago
  Treason from the high court.

by sprash 7y ago

seattle_spring 7y ago

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

crazygorilla 7y ago

It could also backfire to force the people to do it. Maybe there are people who refuse the vaccinations now because they are not allowed to choose on their own anymore.

maze-le 7y ago

Right, they shouldn't be fined for refusing to vaccinate, they should be fined for endangering the life of their kids and others with this reckless behaviour.

ponow 7y ago
"Reckless"? You mean sub-optimal. Sure, if the issue is spreading disease people outside one's family, then fine away. But choices whose primary consequences are to be borne by the family, ought to stay within the family. Actually, a reasonable starting fine is the expected cost of healthcare outside the family due to non-immunization by the family.
- maze-le 7y ago
  No I do mean "reckless". It is one thing to have no knowledge about a topic and act accordingly, it's quite another to be in active denial about a topic that has been proven again and again. >> Actually, a reasonable starting fine is the expected cost of healthcare outside the family due to non-immunization by the family. Well, its damn hard for anyone immunocompromised (under immunosuppressive therapy or by disease). They have a higher chance of dying, a death that could be prevented if herd immunity would be reached. They are not just a costly externality.
  - convolvatron 7y ago
    it would be so much easier if we could just assign a dollar amount to each human life. then the insurance industry could perform its normal risk-management function. since clearly all lives dont have the same economic value, and the market is really the only effective process to ascribe such a value - slavery is really most natural framework to sort all this out. as a plus, we also dont have to have all those stupid discussions about trollies and track switches anymore.
- fzeroracer 7y ago
  Okay, let's take your argument to the extreme. You say that choices whose primary consequences are to be born by the family ought to stay with the family. With that logic established, do you believe violence against family members is permitted? How about psychological harm or abuse? Your logic doesn't hold up because we've established that certain things are Bad regardless if it's self-contained within a family unit. Ergo, vaccinations should be included as something that should be included. Avoiding vaccinations I argue is tantamount to child abuse.
seattle_spring 7y ago
Why in the hell was this comment flagged, and why can't I vouch for it?
- maze-le 7y ago
  Apparently using reason and holding people accountable is too controversial these days. Btw I didn't meant it snarky or sarcastic, I meant it as it stands there. Not doing a medical procedure is not a good reason to drag someone on front of a court, bodily harm by negligence is...

heavenlyblue 7y ago

>> Mandatory sterilization of people with undesired traits? The Slippery slope starts here. I don't want to be funny here, but I am pretty sure if you took the people who don't want to vaccinate their children and the people who would like to sterilize the "god-damn-migrants" - there will be a significant overlap. It's not a slippery slope. We're not living in Wild West any more - the population is growing and lack of vaccinations is becoming more of an issue than in a more sparsely populated past.

hodr 7y ago
If you don't want to be funny, how about you go for accurate? The recent anti-vax movement (not to be confused with the religious groups that have always been anti-vaccination) is very much a product of the far left. Completely opposite side of the political spectrum from those who most vehemently oppose migrants.
- detaro 7y ago
  I see examples pretty much all over the place, and certainly not centered around what's "far left" in Germany.

scarejunba 7y ago

Jacobson vs Massachusetts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobson_v._Massachusetts Already resolved in America, at least, with good arguments

stmfreak 7y ago
Treason from the high court.