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Definitely #3. Counterfeit 18650 cells is a serious problem and anyone who has delved deeply into the e-cig/vaping community is already aware of this and doesn

Definitely #3. Counterfeit 18650 cells is a serious problem and anyone who has delved deeply into the e-cig/vaping community is already aware of this and doesn't purchase batteries through Amazon or any other service where counterfeits are commonplace. Counterfeiting of batteries generally, and counterfeiting on Amazon generally, have become critical path problems for a lot of hobbyist communities where having a quality supply chain is safety critical. This is not new. It's true as well in things, such as the car community, where many online supply chains are corrupted with counterfeit safety-critical items like wheels and brake calipers. One of the realities of the world is that "you get what you pay for" is actually true. This has become clear specifically around the batteries issue and also in the car community where specialist online retailers who charge a premium are the go-to places to buy safety-critical components, specifically and exactly because anyone who cares does not want to accept the risk of a safety-critical item failing to save a few bucks. On the flip-side, many people in hobbyist communities are ignorant cheapskates and unfortunately their penny-pinching drive helps to proliferate counterfeiting.

sokoloff 8y ago
"You don't get more than you pay for" is typically true. "You get what you pay for" is far from guaranteed.
- tristor 8y ago
  Definitely true. There are also instances of companies charging premium prices for lower quality products in many hobbyist communities. I'd say the clear corollary to "you get what you pay for" is caveat emptor "buyer beware". As an aside, I know it's typically discouraged from commenting about downvotes, but within minutes my comment in the thread was heavily downvoted and I don't understand why?
  - NullPrefix 8y ago
    "You get what you pay for" is a slogan pushed by high markup resellers who want to look like they provide some value.
    - otakucode 8y ago
      It is also a slogan I am personally hoping catches on in certain industries like the gaming industry - but with different emphasis. That if you pay for something, you're going to get it. So stop paying for it if you don't want to get it. Gamers pay for tremendous abuse to be done to them, and then walk around wide-eyed and mystified why they're being mistreated. Then they pay for more of it.
segfaultbuserr 8y ago
> Definitely #3. Counterfeit 18650 cells is a serious problem and anyone who has delved deeply into the e-cig/vaping community is already aware of this > a lot of hobbyist communities where having a quality supply chain is safety critical. Thanks, it makes lots of sense. Personally, I do play with electronics, but mainly radio and digital devices, not hobbyists RC toys and models. So I didn't know counterfeit cells in the supply chain is so serious, that it's even a trouble in the hobbyists community (where most people know what they're doing). When playing with homebrew electronics, I actively avoid lithium-ion batteries and use Ni-MH when possible, as I know one mistake can be fatal. I realized my decision is correct and I should continue doing it.
agumonkey 8y ago
Did the community managed to organize/assemble a supply chain ? just curious
rofo1 8y ago
You don't need much knowledge to recognize whether 18650 cell is genuine. Just measure the capacity under different loads (say 0.5A, 1A), and check whether its weight is around ~45g (off the top my head). Get something like iMax b6 (dis)charger which is rock solid and cheap :) I've been using it for years. Additionally, you can rely on other reviews. When I buy 18650, I thoroughly review it for others. Usually, the ones that come with some other items are cheap 18650 with low capacity and with sand (counterfeit / faking weight). I want to point out something for everyone: there are cheap Chinese 18650 which are solid! For example, I've personally used official Liitokala batteries and the ones that I used are 100% genuine, high-capacity 18650. As with everything else with life, you need to be careful and check reviews before you buy something.
- kijin 8y ago
  Does it matter how thoroughly you check individual items and reviews when the next person who orders the same item on Amazon might receive a different product? We can't even trust known-good sellers anymore because their inventory gets mixed up with anything that has the same SKU, both genuine and counterfeit.
  - rofo1 8y ago
    Point taken. No clue how can you approach this problem (when the seller himself sends different products to different people). That's scary, but shouldn't such a seller go out of business relatively fast? After couple of bad grades and feedback, surely nobody else will order. But yeah, the first buyers are burnt like this.
    - lozenge 8y ago
      No, Amazon themselves lie about which seller the product is from. They call it comingling. https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/03/20/1553085361000/Amazon--sub-Prime-/ https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/03/20/1553085361000/Amazon-...
    - astura 8y ago
      These are fly-by-night "companies," if they go out of business/get banned they just open a new account under a new name next week. >And it’s easy for third-party retailers to disappear after selling a defective or dangerous product, even if they pop up a few weeks later under a different name and address, again selling dangerous products.
jrockway 8y ago
I think the supply chain problem is the manufacturer's fault. All the 18650s I've bought come with some disclaimer on the box like "not for sale to individuals" or "not for sale for e-cigarette use". So the only way people can buy them is from a fly-by-night vendor that has to lie to the manufacturer and say "oh uh we're putting them in battery packs" and then turn around and sell them to individuals. Every time a counterfeit 18650 blows up, I blame LG, Samsung, Panasonic, etc. for this policy. It's the root of the problem.
olivermarks 8y ago
This is also why I wouldn't buy batteries from aliexpress
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

sokoloff 8y ago

"You don't get more than you pay for" is typically true. "You get what you pay for" is far from guaranteed.

tristor 8y ago
Definitely true. There are also instances of companies charging premium prices for lower quality products in many hobbyist communities. I'd say the clear corollary to "you get what you pay for" is caveat emptor "buyer beware". As an aside, I know it's typically discouraged from commenting about downvotes, but within minutes my comment in the thread was heavily downvoted and I don't understand why?
- NullPrefix 8y ago
  "You get what you pay for" is a slogan pushed by high markup resellers who want to look like they provide some value.
  - otakucode 8y ago
    It is also a slogan I am personally hoping catches on in certain industries like the gaming industry - but with different emphasis. That if you pay for something, you're going to get it. So stop paying for it if you don't want to get it. Gamers pay for tremendous abuse to be done to them, and then walk around wide-eyed and mystified why they're being mistreated. Then they pay for more of it.

segfaultbuserr 8y ago

> Definitely #3. Counterfeit 18650 cells is a serious problem and anyone who has delved deeply into the e-cig/vaping community is already aware of this > a lot of hobbyist communities where having a quality supply chain is safety critical. Thanks, it makes lots of sense. Personally, I do play with electronics, but mainly radio and digital devices, not hobbyists RC toys and models. So I didn't know counterfeit cells in the supply chain is so serious, that it's even a trouble in the hobbyists community (where most people know what they're doing). When playing with homebrew electronics, I actively avoid lithium-ion batteries and use Ni-MH when possible, as I know one mistake can be fatal. I realized my decision is correct and I should continue doing it.

agumonkey 8y ago

Did the community managed to organize/assemble a supply chain ? just curious

rofo1 8y ago

You don't need much knowledge to recognize whether 18650 cell is genuine. Just measure the capacity under different loads (say 0.5A, 1A), and check whether its weight is around ~45g (off the top my head). Get something like iMax b6 (dis)charger which is rock solid and cheap :) I've been using it for years. Additionally, you can rely on other reviews. When I buy 18650, I thoroughly review it for others. Usually, the ones that come with some other items are cheap 18650 with low capacity and with sand (counterfeit / faking weight). I want to point out something for everyone: there are cheap Chinese 18650 which are solid! For example, I've personally used official Liitokala batteries and the ones that I used are 100% genuine, high-capacity 18650. As with everything else with life, you need to be careful and check reviews before you buy something.

kijin 8y ago
Does it matter how thoroughly you check individual items and reviews when the next person who orders the same item on Amazon might receive a different product? We can't even trust known-good sellers anymore because their inventory gets mixed up with anything that has the same SKU, both genuine and counterfeit.
- rofo1 8y ago
  Point taken. No clue how can you approach this problem (when the seller himself sends different products to different people). That's scary, but shouldn't such a seller go out of business relatively fast? After couple of bad grades and feedback, surely nobody else will order. But yeah, the first buyers are burnt like this.
  - lozenge 8y ago
    No, Amazon themselves lie about which seller the product is from. They call it comingling. https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/03/20/1553085361000/Amazon--sub-Prime-/ https://ftalphaville.ft.com/2019/03/20/1553085361000/Amazon-...
  - astura 8y ago
    These are fly-by-night "companies," if they go out of business/get banned they just open a new account under a new name next week. >And it’s easy for third-party retailers to disappear after selling a defective or dangerous product, even if they pop up a few weeks later under a different name and address, again selling dangerous products.

jrockway 8y ago

I think the supply chain problem is the manufacturer's fault. All the 18650s I've bought come with some disclaimer on the box like "not for sale to individuals" or "not for sale for e-cigarette use". So the only way people can buy them is from a fly-by-night vendor that has to lie to the manufacturer and say "oh uh we're putting them in battery packs" and then turn around and sell them to individuals. Every time a counterfeit 18650 blows up, I blame LG, Samsung, Panasonic, etc. for this policy. It's the root of the problem.

olivermarks 8y ago

This is also why I wouldn't buy batteries from aliexpress

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]