8 ms·

"I’m a different guy. I’m fun to be around. Once I couldn’t even cry. Now I can." This really punched me in the feels. It also sucks that Justin preferred not

"I’m a different guy. I’m fun to be around. Once I couldn’t even cry. Now I can." This really punched me in the feels. It also sucks that Justin preferred not to share his last name for fear of retribution for possessing some fungus that occurs naturally in the wild. Kinda reminds me of the veterans in the US who have been trying to lobby the VA to stop being jerks about cannabis. They say it helps with their PTSD. Currently we don't have a lot of scientific certainty on whether it actually does help or not because of the lack of research. But even putting that aside, it's still kinda absurd that we dictate which naturally growing plants people are allowed to possess / cultivate / smoke / ingest / whatever.

mortenjorck 7y ago
Ultimately, it’s reductive to make the “how can a plant be illegal” argument. More instructive is to ask “why make something illegal that people use in private,” to which one might reasonably counter “because there are externalities in the form of societal costs.” This, then, gives us a much more interesting question of “how can we reduce the societal costs of people using substances in unhealthy ways?” Indeed, banning a plant has proven not to be an effective way of accomplishing this. So what is? I don’t know the right answer for the US, but there are examples of other more successful approaches. In particular, it’s worth looking at Portugal’s decision to treat substance abuse as a public health problem.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > Ultimately, it’s reductive to make the “how can a plant be illegal” argument. How so? I find that to be a reasonable argument, outside of "invasive species" issues.
  - dmd 7y ago
    How can a lump of lead, a naturally occurring metal, be illegal? All I'm doing is moving it from one place to another. How can anything be illegal? It's all just atoms.
    - SteveNuts 7y ago
      Is possessing lead illegal?
      - dmd 7y ago
        It can be, especially in bullet form, especially when you move those little lumps of lead very fast in various directions.
ummonk 7y ago
Out of curiosity, would you say the same thing about opium poppy? (Serious question, not a gotcha; opium seems to have a much clearer harmful and addictive impact and it seems to be very difficult to prevent a substantial fraction of people from getting addicted to it when it is freely available; would you prioritize principle or practicality in the case of opium?)
- beat 7y ago
  A substantial fraction of people become addicted to opiates when they are not freely available, too. Which begs the question... is addiction the problem? Or are the problems consequences of restricted availability? To put it another way... if heroin were legalized tomorrow, would you start shooting up? Is illegality the best (or only) way to prevent addiction? Look at tobacco. It's legal. Most people don't use it, because it's addictive and dangerous, and usage rates have dropped considerably due to social pressures and awareness campaigns. When proposing (or defending) a solution, make sure you ask yourself if it actually solves the problem.
  - thefounder 7y ago
    Look what happened with the tobacco or the alcohol regulation. It looks like most of the people got addicted to smoking pretty quickly. I can't see a single good thing if they would switch to heroin. I believe China had the opium legalised and it didn't turn to be a good idea either.
    - elevenoh 7y ago
      Might this outcome differ in a ubiquitous information age?
  - TallGuyShort 7y ago
    Is illegality even A way to prevent addiction? Because most of the data in the US indicates no correlation between enforcement and addiction rates. We say we enforce drug laws for people's protection, catch them with drugs, throw them in jail and say, "see? this is what happens when you take drugs." The discussion around Denver's laws has often been on the assumption that before Colorado legalized marijuana, no one had access to marijuana. They throw around statistics with out before / after comparisons, or without full context. One famous example was a guy who drove into a parked cop car - a test confirmed that some time in the last 6 months he had smoked marijuana. Nevermind that his BAC was astronomical. Anti-marijuana headlines for days on that one.
Alex3917 7y ago
The thing that always gets me is that no matter where you are on the east coast, the magic mushrooms always come out about two weeks after the flowering cherries are at their peak, so just at the point where they're starting to wither and fade. (So basically today if you're in NYC.) Somehow that just seems to accentuate the beautiful but bittersweet nature of reality.
saiya-jin 7y ago
I wouldn't mind the natural-but-prohibited part as much, societies can be conservative for good reasons. But we have effin' tobacco industry killing hundreds of millions and still running strong within our society and acting like they do some moral business when in fact they operate one of worst amoral slow-kill-and-extract-money-for-it business in history of mankind. We have alcohol industry who causes misery on global scale. When some pharma drugs are found to be damaging to the patients, there is strong reaction including banning, investigation, fines, regulations etc. But alcohol gets all the free passes there are and some more. How many people do you know personally that ruined their lives purely due to alcohol addiction? All politicians realize this. Practically none have the balls to stand up to those economical behemoths, they know they would probably lose. Once in distant future our offsprings will look on our era and wonder what the heck was wrong with us for many reasons, be it environment, poverty, flat-earthers and so on. Self-righteous folks who feel they are above everybody else to dictate morals and beliefs. And treatment of some well-known substances will be one those wrongs done by few upon the rest.
- mrhappyunhappy 7y ago
  Once in the distant future our offsprings will huddle, starved, in refugee camps in northern Canada when our planet undergoes systemic collapse from a runaway carbon cycle. Smoke and alcohol related deaths will be the least of their concerns.
  - watwat1 7y ago
    Rest In Peace.
rayiner 7y ago
> But even putting that aside, it's still kinda absurd that we dictate which naturally growing plants people are allowed to possess / cultivate / smoke / ingest / whatever. It may or may not be the best policy, but I disagree that it is "absurd." If we were a nation of sovereign citizens, that would be one thing. But we're not. We live in a society, where we have undertaken quite extensive obligations to each individual. At least where I live in Maryland, we have committed that we will pay for the medical care of each individual below 133% of the poverty line. Unlike some states, we do not deny benefits based on drug testing. Indeed, if you're a drug addict, we'll even pay for your treatment at the public expense. In that context, it is not "absurd" for the government to regulate (1) behaviors that could cause people to become a liability to the welfare system; (2) behaviors that could prevent people from being productive contributors to the economy that funds the welfare system. For example, as to marijuana, which is a relatively mild drug in the grand scheme of things, there are studies showing cognitive impacts even after the high wears off: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/marijuana-may-be-worse-teen-brains-alcohol-study-finds-n916296; https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/marijuana-may-be-... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-pot-really-does-to-the-teen-brain/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-pot-really-d... > A slew of studies in adults have found that nonusers beat chronic weed smokers on tests of attention, memory, motor skills and verbal abilities, but some of this might be the result of lingering traces of cannabis in the body of users or withdrawal effects from abstaining while taking part in a study. Likewise, studies show that the number of people trying marijuana for the first time doubled after it was legalized in Canada: https://www.businessinsider.com/since-pot-was-legalized-in-canada-twice-as-many-canadians-have-tried-it-2019-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/since-pot-was-legalized-in-c.... Maybe, on the balance, legalization is still the right call, at least for marijuana. But, in a developed welfare state, the government has the right to make that judgment and legislate accordingly.
- rcoveson 7y ago
  You're right that it's not absurd, and that scares me. By the same logic it wouldn't be absurd to limit people's right to go ice climbing or paragliding. Down a different path of rationalizing, it would also make sense to limit low-income earners or unhealthy people's entry into the state. These are the downsides to welfare programs that people should really be focusing on. It's not the cost in terms of dollars, but in freedoms that it calls into question.

mortenjorck 7y ago

Ultimately, it’s reductive to make the “how can a plant be illegal” argument. More instructive is to ask “why make something illegal that people use in private,” to which one might reasonably counter “because there are externalities in the form of societal costs.” This, then, gives us a much more interesting question of “how can we reduce the societal costs of people using substances in unhealthy ways?” Indeed, banning a plant has proven not to be an effective way of accomplishing this. So what is? I don’t know the right answer for the US, but there are examples of other more successful approaches. In particular, it’s worth looking at Portugal’s decision to treat substance abuse as a public health problem.

mieseratte 7y ago
> Ultimately, it’s reductive to make the “how can a plant be illegal” argument. How so? I find that to be a reasonable argument, outside of "invasive species" issues.
- dmd 7y ago
  How can a lump of lead, a naturally occurring metal, be illegal? All I'm doing is moving it from one place to another. How can anything be illegal? It's all just atoms.
  - SteveNuts 7y ago
    Is possessing lead illegal?
    - dmd 7y ago
      It can be, especially in bullet form, especially when you move those little lumps of lead very fast in various directions.

ummonk 7y ago

Out of curiosity, would you say the same thing about opium poppy? (Serious question, not a gotcha; opium seems to have a much clearer harmful and addictive impact and it seems to be very difficult to prevent a substantial fraction of people from getting addicted to it when it is freely available; would you prioritize principle or practicality in the case of opium?)

beat 7y ago
A substantial fraction of people become addicted to opiates when they are not freely available, too. Which begs the question... is addiction the problem? Or are the problems consequences of restricted availability? To put it another way... if heroin were legalized tomorrow, would you start shooting up? Is illegality the best (or only) way to prevent addiction? Look at tobacco. It's legal. Most people don't use it, because it's addictive and dangerous, and usage rates have dropped considerably due to social pressures and awareness campaigns. When proposing (or defending) a solution, make sure you ask yourself if it actually solves the problem.
- thefounder 7y ago
  Look what happened with the tobacco or the alcohol regulation. It looks like most of the people got addicted to smoking pretty quickly. I can't see a single good thing if they would switch to heroin. I believe China had the opium legalised and it didn't turn to be a good idea either.
  - elevenoh 7y ago
    Might this outcome differ in a ubiquitous information age?
- TallGuyShort 7y ago
  Is illegality even A way to prevent addiction? Because most of the data in the US indicates no correlation between enforcement and addiction rates. We say we enforce drug laws for people's protection, catch them with drugs, throw them in jail and say, "see? this is what happens when you take drugs." The discussion around Denver's laws has often been on the assumption that before Colorado legalized marijuana, no one had access to marijuana. They throw around statistics with out before / after comparisons, or without full context. One famous example was a guy who drove into a parked cop car - a test confirmed that some time in the last 6 months he had smoked marijuana. Nevermind that his BAC was astronomical. Anti-marijuana headlines for days on that one.

Alex3917 7y ago

The thing that always gets me is that no matter where you are on the east coast, the magic mushrooms always come out about two weeks after the flowering cherries are at their peak, so just at the point where they're starting to wither and fade. (So basically today if you're in NYC.) Somehow that just seems to accentuate the beautiful but bittersweet nature of reality.

saiya-jin 7y ago

I wouldn't mind the natural-but-prohibited part as much, societies can be conservative for good reasons. But we have effin' tobacco industry killing hundreds of millions and still running strong within our society and acting like they do some moral business when in fact they operate one of worst amoral slow-kill-and-extract-money-for-it business in history of mankind. We have alcohol industry who causes misery on global scale. When some pharma drugs are found to be damaging to the patients, there is strong reaction including banning, investigation, fines, regulations etc. But alcohol gets all the free passes there are and some more. How many people do you know personally that ruined their lives purely due to alcohol addiction? All politicians realize this. Practically none have the balls to stand up to those economical behemoths, they know they would probably lose. Once in distant future our offsprings will look on our era and wonder what the heck was wrong with us for many reasons, be it environment, poverty, flat-earthers and so on. Self-righteous folks who feel they are above everybody else to dictate morals and beliefs. And treatment of some well-known substances will be one those wrongs done by few upon the rest.

mrhappyunhappy 7y ago
Once in the distant future our offsprings will huddle, starved, in refugee camps in northern Canada when our planet undergoes systemic collapse from a runaway carbon cycle. Smoke and alcohol related deaths will be the least of their concerns.
- watwat1 7y ago
  Rest In Peace.

rayiner 7y ago

> But even putting that aside, it's still kinda absurd that we dictate which naturally growing plants people are allowed to possess / cultivate / smoke / ingest / whatever. It may or may not be the best policy, but I disagree that it is "absurd." If we were a nation of sovereign citizens, that would be one thing. But we're not. We live in a society, where we have undertaken quite extensive obligations to each individual. At least where I live in Maryland, we have committed that we will pay for the medical care of each individual below 133% of the poverty line. Unlike some states, we do not deny benefits based on drug testing. Indeed, if you're a drug addict, we'll even pay for your treatment at the public expense. In that context, it is not "absurd" for the government to regulate (1) behaviors that could cause people to become a liability to the welfare system; (2) behaviors that could prevent people from being productive contributors to the economy that funds the welfare system. For example, as to marijuana, which is a relatively mild drug in the grand scheme of things, there are studies showing cognitive impacts even after the high wears off: https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/marijuana-may-be-worse-teen-brains-alcohol-study-finds-n916296; https://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/marijuana-may-be-... https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-pot-really-does-to-the-teen-brain/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-pot-really-d... > A slew of studies in adults have found that nonusers beat chronic weed smokers on tests of attention, memory, motor skills and verbal abilities, but some of this might be the result of lingering traces of cannabis in the body of users or withdrawal effects from abstaining while taking part in a study. Likewise, studies show that the number of people trying marijuana for the first time doubled after it was legalized in Canada: https://www.businessinsider.com/since-pot-was-legalized-in-canada-twice-as-many-canadians-have-tried-it-2019-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/since-pot-was-legalized-in-c.... Maybe, on the balance, legalization is still the right call, at least for marijuana. But, in a developed welfare state, the government has the right to make that judgment and legislate accordingly.

rcoveson 7y ago
You're right that it's not absurd, and that scares me. By the same logic it wouldn't be absurd to limit people's right to go ice climbing or paragliding. Down a different path of rationalizing, it would also make sense to limit low-income earners or unhealthy people's entry into the state. These are the downsides to welfare programs that people should really be focusing on. It's not the cost in terms of dollars, but in freedoms that it calls into question.