4 ms·

>What a bunch of bullshit. I'm not a vegan, even though I'm sure you'll label me as having an "anti-meat agenda." I have substantially cut down on my own meat c

>What a bunch of bullshit. I'm not a vegan, even though I'm sure you'll label me as having an "anti-meat agenda." I have substantially cut down on my own meat consumption due to the environmental impact. Do you fly less? Drive less or carpool? Recycle? Live in a small home? Did you decide to not to have children? Wear only used clothing? Do you track your trash and food waste? Do you eat less? Shower less? Do you donate money to environmental causes? The militant "your opinion is bullshit" on individual issues is precisely why the majority of people don't take climate change seriously. I'll continue to enjoy my meat and do my part in many other ways, thanks.

Voloskaya 7y ago
There is a drastic difference between saying: I still want to eat meat because I like it and I don't care about it's impact (or I offset the impact some other way like you say you do), and saying: vegan diet is not healthy or sustainable and thus no one should do it, and here are a bunch of pseudo-scientific facts to back my made up claims. The former is honest, the latter is a bunch of BS.
fcarraldo 7y ago
You can continue to enjoy your meat, but still ensure your diet contains a responsible amount of it. A diet with proportionally less meat is both healthier and more environmentally sustainable. I will never understand why Americans are personally affronted by the idea that they should eat less meat. What makes it such an insulting proposition?
- MiroF 7y ago
  > What makes it such an insulting proposition? People are bred and raised with this axiomatic, individualist "you against the world" attitude from birth. There's a huge cultural divide. "Why the fuck should I have to ever give anything up that I don't want to, to help you? And fuck you for guilt-tripping me" is pretty much the standard fare.
- TallGuyShort 7y ago
  In many places in America, the only (or at least the most vocal / visible by far) vegans you'll encounter tend to be weak, unhealthy, and obnoxious about their veganism. The hypocrisy makes it hard to take a rational look at the health benefits. These are the last 4 encounters I remember myself or someone close to me having with vegans: (1) Someone who spent 2 weeks traveling with family to a country that eats mostly meat, and spent the whole trip complaining about the food and lecturing the wait staff about their local culture. (and this as an adult - they chose to join the others on the trip) (2) Guy at the gym who lectured several people in class about their protein choices, whereas he's sick every other week, very weak, and lacks the endurance that even beginners in the class quickly develop. (3) Someone who showed up to a kids birthday party and complained about the non-vegan cake. (4) Coworker who came with the team on a lunch paid for by the company. Rude to restaurant staff who clearly speak English as a second language and didn't understand the difference between vegan and vegetarian. Now that's not meant as an insult to all vegans - I've switched to a mostly vegan diet myself. But you can almost entirely cut animal products out of your diet without needing to be a dick to people when they graciously serve you something else, or without lecturing people about health when you look like a late-stage AIDS victim. I think that puts people off. And yes, there's plenty of American meat-eaters who are equally obnoxious and close to death. But nobody wonders why people don't like them. Just more polarization because the other side's too extreme, so people go further the other way.
  - MiroF 7y ago
    I think has more to do with the fact that any sort of vocal veganism is considered obnoxious in the US. So yeah, anyone who tells you they're vegan will be labeled as obnoxious.
    - TallGuyShort 7y ago
      Yeah if only we could figure out how it got associated with obnoxious people in the first place.
      - eropple 7y ago
- navigatesol 7y ago
  >I will never understand why Americans are personally affronted by the idea that they should eat less meat. I'm not American, nor can you have any possible idea what amount I eat, nor "should" be eating.
MiroF 7y ago
Sorry, didn't realize I was talking to someone who believed making changes at the margin don't matter. None of your arguments justify continued high meat consumption. I don't own a car, I recycle, I live in an apartment, don't have children, thrift, compost, ??eat less?? (no - I eat sustainably, and it more than makes up for the amount I eat). > The militant "your opinion is bullshit" on individual issues Thinking you're wrong isn't "militant" - it's just thinking that you're wrong. Learn to have a discussion. People don't take climate change seriously because they're able to hide behind moral excuses for their own behavior, not because they're turned off because a vegan was mean to them once.
- tjr225 7y ago
  I think it kind of gets lost in this debate- but lets say that the facts point towards a very grim outcome in the relatively near future. Now lets say we could possibly mitigate the grimness of that outcome with our actions...wouldn't it make sense for all of us to do everything in our power? What would we lose? A burger tastes good, sure, but who gives a flying fuck if the planet is essentially uninhabitable?
  - MiroF 7y ago
    I recommend reading some essays on climate justice/meta-ethics, these are very interesting questions! Under the assumption of utilitarianism, it does seem like we ought do everything in our power.
- navigatesol 7y ago
  >I was talking to someone who believed making changes at the margin don't matter. I listed plenty of things I do that contribute at the margins. But unless I follow your rules, it will never be good enough. >None of your arguments justify continued high meat consumption. I don't need to justify a single thing to you or anyone else. >Learn to have a discussion. Rich, coming from a person who opened up the conversation with "what a bunch of bullshit".
hak8or 7y ago
The reaosn people don't take climate change seriously is because they are severely lacking in science education, grossly misinformed (both of which cause said opinions to be "bullshit"), or selfish.

Voloskaya 7y ago

There is a drastic difference between saying: I still want to eat meat because I like it and I don't care about it's impact (or I offset the impact some other way like you say you do), and saying: vegan diet is not healthy or sustainable and thus no one should do it, and here are a bunch of pseudo-scientific facts to back my made up claims. The former is honest, the latter is a bunch of BS.

fcarraldo 7y ago

You can continue to enjoy your meat, but still ensure your diet contains a responsible amount of it. A diet with proportionally less meat is both healthier and more environmentally sustainable. I will never understand why Americans are personally affronted by the idea that they should eat less meat. What makes it such an insulting proposition?

MiroF 7y ago
> What makes it such an insulting proposition? People are bred and raised with this axiomatic, individualist "you against the world" attitude from birth. There's a huge cultural divide. "Why the fuck should I have to ever give anything up that I don't want to, to help you? And fuck you for guilt-tripping me" is pretty much the standard fare.
TallGuyShort 7y ago
In many places in America, the only (or at least the most vocal / visible by far) vegans you'll encounter tend to be weak, unhealthy, and obnoxious about their veganism. The hypocrisy makes it hard to take a rational look at the health benefits. These are the last 4 encounters I remember myself or someone close to me having with vegans: (1) Someone who spent 2 weeks traveling with family to a country that eats mostly meat, and spent the whole trip complaining about the food and lecturing the wait staff about their local culture. (and this as an adult - they chose to join the others on the trip) (2) Guy at the gym who lectured several people in class about their protein choices, whereas he's sick every other week, very weak, and lacks the endurance that even beginners in the class quickly develop. (3) Someone who showed up to a kids birthday party and complained about the non-vegan cake. (4) Coworker who came with the team on a lunch paid for by the company. Rude to restaurant staff who clearly speak English as a second language and didn't understand the difference between vegan and vegetarian. Now that's not meant as an insult to all vegans - I've switched to a mostly vegan diet myself. But you can almost entirely cut animal products out of your diet without needing to be a dick to people when they graciously serve you something else, or without lecturing people about health when you look like a late-stage AIDS victim. I think that puts people off. And yes, there's plenty of American meat-eaters who are equally obnoxious and close to death. But nobody wonders why people don't like them. Just more polarization because the other side's too extreme, so people go further the other way.
- MiroF 7y ago
  I think has more to do with the fact that any sort of vocal veganism is considered obnoxious in the US. So yeah, anyone who tells you they're vegan will be labeled as obnoxious.
  - TallGuyShort 7y ago
    Yeah if only we could figure out how it got associated with obnoxious people in the first place.
    - eropple 7y ago
navigatesol 7y ago
>I will never understand why Americans are personally affronted by the idea that they should eat less meat. I'm not American, nor can you have any possible idea what amount I eat, nor "should" be eating.

MiroF 7y ago

Sorry, didn't realize I was talking to someone who believed making changes at the margin don't matter. None of your arguments justify continued high meat consumption. I don't own a car, I recycle, I live in an apartment, don't have children, thrift, compost, ??eat less?? (no - I eat sustainably, and it more than makes up for the amount I eat). > The militant "your opinion is bullshit" on individual issues Thinking you're wrong isn't "militant" - it's just thinking that you're wrong. Learn to have a discussion. People don't take climate change seriously because they're able to hide behind moral excuses for their own behavior, not because they're turned off because a vegan was mean to them once.

tjr225 7y ago
I think it kind of gets lost in this debate- but lets say that the facts point towards a very grim outcome in the relatively near future. Now lets say we could possibly mitigate the grimness of that outcome with our actions...wouldn't it make sense for all of us to do everything in our power? What would we lose? A burger tastes good, sure, but who gives a flying fuck if the planet is essentially uninhabitable?
- MiroF 7y ago
  I recommend reading some essays on climate justice/meta-ethics, these are very interesting questions! Under the assumption of utilitarianism, it does seem like we ought do everything in our power.
navigatesol 7y ago
>I was talking to someone who believed making changes at the margin don't matter. I listed plenty of things I do that contribute at the margins. But unless I follow your rules, it will never be good enough. >None of your arguments justify continued high meat consumption. I don't need to justify a single thing to you or anyone else. >Learn to have a discussion. Rich, coming from a person who opened up the conversation with "what a bunch of bullshit".

hak8or 7y ago

The reaosn people don't take climate change seriously is because they are severely lacking in science education, grossly misinformed (both of which cause said opinions to be "bullshit"), or selfish.