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Resistant strains rarely come from antibiotics use on humans. Antibiotics abuse in agriculture is what brings rise to superbugs. No better way to develop them t

Resistant strains rarely come from antibiotics use on humans. Antibiotics abuse in agriculture is what brings rise to superbugs. No better way to develop them than billions of Petri dishes born every year and badly administered end of the line antibiotics.

cameronbrown 7y ago
We badly need an alternative to animal agriculture. It takes up huge swathes of space, contributes more to global warming than anything else, and now superbugs? This is terrifying and has far far worse implications than climate change. Imagine if we regress back to time where medical science is useless? - Where even having a child becomes a killer because the antibiotics don't work anymore. I know most people aren't ready to give up meat, but we need to cut production massively and soon. Maybe cloned meat is the answer.
- strainer 7y ago
  Besides the biological safety issues in mass producing animal flesh detached from an evolved and plenty mysterious natural immune system... Meat gets flavor from animals diet and digestion and overall systematic health. The magic cloned meat fairy should and may well never amount to more than a strange and precarious confusion, about our potential and desirable relationship to food and its environment in crisis.
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    I'm not saying cloned meat is the answer, just that it could be an answer. Is there any reason not to try?
- coldtea 7y ago
  > We badly need an alternative to animal agriculture. We could start by eating way less meat, the amount that our ancestors ate more or less, and that doctors advice (once a week or so).
  - cameronbrown 7y ago
    Which is exactly what I do and would encourage others to do so.
fredgrott 7y ago
ahem bio/chem major here not correct.. the normal ecology of bacteria is to produce toxins to compete with other bacteria and their gene passing across species is set up so that they gain resistance via exposure to new toxins..guess what the new toxins are? Yes,, antibiotics..the same bacteria toxins re-repurpose and learn how to make artificially
jillesvangurp 7y ago
I think it's a combination of both. There are a lot of GPs who just over medicate to shut up the patients who pretty much demand them; or worse people self medicating in a lot of places. Some countries are worse at this than others. E.g. the difference between northern and southern europe is pretty big. Patients in some countries expect to be given prescriptions in exchange for the hassle of visiting a doctor and will be angry when they don't get any. So they come in with what is obviously the common cold (i.e. a virus) and leave with some prescription for antibiotics. When I was living in Finland on the other hand, I was issued anti-biotics once but only after a quick (30 minutes) blood test confirmed I needed them and that there was a bonafide bacterial infection that required it. In the meat industry, the current practicing of just mixing in antibiotics with the animal food by default is not sustainable. Cleaning up that industry is not going to be popular and very disruptive but also very necessary. A lot could be done with clear certifications and subsidies here.
hvidgaard 7y ago
Antibiotics have a side effect of drastically increasing growth in certain livestock. Unless it's heavily regulated, it will continue to be used. When consumers can do is buying the significantly more expensive meat options that are antibiotic free, or simply buy less meat.
- ben_w 7y ago
  One thing I’ve often wondered is: given this danger, why can’t the agricultural consumers be restricted to only those antibiotics which human diseases have already evolved immunity to?
  - KSteffensen 7y ago
    Because it would cost farmers money
    - ben_w 7y ago
      Why would it cost more money to keep using a drug they’re already using after it ceases to also be used therapeutically for humans?
- cageface 7y ago
  I think in this case we do need regulations since as long as some producers continue to abuse antibiotics this way it affects all of us.
- gingabriska 7y ago
  Does it also work on humans? Does taking a lot of antibiotics since birth makes a human stronger and taller? I've never seen bodybuilders taking antibiotics for size tho tho heard of plenty of steroid and protein/testosterone stuff. But I know some chicken farmers in my neighborhood who double the chicken size with antibiotics.
  - nicwilson 7y ago
    > Does it also work on humans? Does taking a lot of antibiotics since birth makes a human stronger and taller? Quite possibly. It will also bugger up your immune system maturation spectacularly. That doesn't matter so much for animals destined for the slaughterhouse, but it does for you because viruses aren't affected by antibiotics.
Arnt 7y ago
I'd love to see a reliable citation on that. Also, as a bonus, on whether existing resistant strains tend to lose their resistance if they're not kept on their toes with a steady supply of antibiotics.
- mschuster91 7y ago
  Here you are: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/are-antibiotics-turning-livestock-superbug-factories https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/are-antibiotics-turn...
  - Arnt 7y ago
    The relevant original source seems to be this: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rstb.2014.0085 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rstb.2014... and it's precisely what I wanted. Thanks!

cameronbrown 7y ago

We badly need an alternative to animal agriculture. It takes up huge swathes of space, contributes more to global warming than anything else, and now superbugs? This is terrifying and has far far worse implications than climate change. Imagine if we regress back to time where medical science is useless? - Where even having a child becomes a killer because the antibiotics don't work anymore. I know most people aren't ready to give up meat, but we need to cut production massively and soon. Maybe cloned meat is the answer.

strainer 7y ago
Besides the biological safety issues in mass producing animal flesh detached from an evolved and plenty mysterious natural immune system... Meat gets flavor from animals diet and digestion and overall systematic health. The magic cloned meat fairy should and may well never amount to more than a strange and precarious confusion, about our potential and desirable relationship to food and its environment in crisis.
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  I'm not saying cloned meat is the answer, just that it could be an answer. Is there any reason not to try?
coldtea 7y ago
> We badly need an alternative to animal agriculture. We could start by eating way less meat, the amount that our ancestors ate more or less, and that doctors advice (once a week or so).
- cameronbrown 7y ago
  Which is exactly what I do and would encourage others to do so.

fredgrott 7y ago

ahem bio/chem major here not correct.. the normal ecology of bacteria is to produce toxins to compete with other bacteria and their gene passing across species is set up so that they gain resistance via exposure to new toxins..guess what the new toxins are? Yes,, antibiotics..the same bacteria toxins re-repurpose and learn how to make artificially

jillesvangurp 7y ago

I think it's a combination of both. There are a lot of GPs who just over medicate to shut up the patients who pretty much demand them; or worse people self medicating in a lot of places. Some countries are worse at this than others. E.g. the difference between northern and southern europe is pretty big. Patients in some countries expect to be given prescriptions in exchange for the hassle of visiting a doctor and will be angry when they don't get any. So they come in with what is obviously the common cold (i.e. a virus) and leave with some prescription for antibiotics. When I was living in Finland on the other hand, I was issued anti-biotics once but only after a quick (30 minutes) blood test confirmed I needed them and that there was a bonafide bacterial infection that required it. In the meat industry, the current practicing of just mixing in antibiotics with the animal food by default is not sustainable. Cleaning up that industry is not going to be popular and very disruptive but also very necessary. A lot could be done with clear certifications and subsidies here.

hvidgaard 7y ago

Antibiotics have a side effect of drastically increasing growth in certain livestock. Unless it's heavily regulated, it will continue to be used. When consumers can do is buying the significantly more expensive meat options that are antibiotic free, or simply buy less meat.

ben_w 7y ago
One thing I’ve often wondered is: given this danger, why can’t the agricultural consumers be restricted to only those antibiotics which human diseases have already evolved immunity to?
- KSteffensen 7y ago
  Because it would cost farmers money
  - ben_w 7y ago
    Why would it cost more money to keep using a drug they’re already using after it ceases to also be used therapeutically for humans?
cageface 7y ago
I think in this case we do need regulations since as long as some producers continue to abuse antibiotics this way it affects all of us.
gingabriska 7y ago
Does it also work on humans? Does taking a lot of antibiotics since birth makes a human stronger and taller? I've never seen bodybuilders taking antibiotics for size tho tho heard of plenty of steroid and protein/testosterone stuff. But I know some chicken farmers in my neighborhood who double the chicken size with antibiotics.
- nicwilson 7y ago
  > Does it also work on humans? Does taking a lot of antibiotics since birth makes a human stronger and taller? Quite possibly. It will also bugger up your immune system maturation spectacularly. That doesn't matter so much for animals destined for the slaughterhouse, but it does for you because viruses aren't affected by antibiotics.

Arnt 7y ago

I'd love to see a reliable citation on that. Also, as a bonus, on whether existing resistant strains tend to lose their resistance if they're not kept on their toes with a steady supply of antibiotics.

mschuster91 7y ago
Here you are: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/are-antibiotics-turning-livestock-superbug-factories https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/09/are-antibiotics-turn...
- Arnt 7y ago
  The relevant original source seems to be this: https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rstb.2014.0085 https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rstb.2014... and it's precisely what I wanted. Thanks!