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It's easy to dismiss cults until you realize how easily an intelligent person can fall under their spell. Many cults have very logical belief systems predicate

It's easy to dismiss cults until you realize how easily an intelligent person can fall under their spell. Many cults have very logical belief systems predicated on a few twisted axioms. If you convince an intelligent, rational person that those axioms are true, you have them. Often the smartest folks are drawn in because they are used to having beliefs and convictions far outside the mainstream which are rooted in reason(general relativity, for example). I grew up atheist, but ended up spending about 6 years in a cult-like, nameless, christian denomination. It wasn't until the results of their belief system became absurd that I started to question the entire system.

hutzlibu 8y ago
"Many cults have very logical belief systems predicated on a few twisted axioms. " Yeah well, I was once also part of such a weird cult which might be the oldest and powerful one - the catholic church.
- studentrob 8y ago
  > I was once also part of such a weird cult which might be the oldest and powerful one - the catholic church. I have a hard time vilifying any whole religion. At the same time, the more successful a doctrine, the larger and more attractive it becomes to people seeking power. Does this mean we should stop trying? Certainly not. I like Adler's "Individual Psychology" which I discovered from the book "The Courage to Be Disliked". He boils it down to three things, 1) Accept yourself 2) Have confidence in others 3) Contribute to others There is some nuance in the book, like for #2 you should not allow yourself to be easily duped.
  - hutzlibu 8y ago
    "I have a hard time vilifying any whole religion." I don't do that. At least not the individiual (catholic) religious people and what they understand by beeing catholic (or muslim, or...) And I understand very well, what it gives to them, so why smart people choose to bend logic to make it a coherent view and todays church is a lot nicer than it used to be. But the whole dogmatic base of the bible (or qoran or talmud, etc.) I do vilify very much, yes. Because it just is plain evil by my standards. Racial superiorty, genocid, total obedience, killing and torturing of nonbelievers and heretics. The great Moses for example was great in this: Exodus 2/32 "And he said unto them: 'Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. And Moses said: 'Consecrate yourselves to-day to the LORD, for every man hath been against his son and against his brother; that He may also bestow upon you a blessing this day.' " Ask any christian about Moses and they tell you what a great guy he was ... but yes, most do not (want to) know about what the bible actually says about him.
    - studentrob 8y ago
      Fair point, thanks for clarifying. Often a short internet comment is not enough to convey full thoughts.
hycaria 8y ago
Do we have proof of the intelligence of said victims ?
- doall 8y ago
  I know an example. The Aum Shinrikyo, which is known as one of the most violent cults in Japanese history, had many elites from top universities including doctors, lawyers, graduate students and so on.
pif 8y ago
> If you convince an intelligent, rational person that those axioms are true, If you convince them that those axioms are true, than they are not intelligent nor rational.
- sudhirj 8y ago
  No, this kind of reductive thinking doesn’t hold. Ever heard of that alchemist quack who also did some math on the side? Newton, his name was.
  - heavenlyblue 8y ago
    Newton lived in the 17th century.
  - pif 8y ago
    From Wikipedia: Alchemy (from Arabic: al-kīmiyā) was an ancient branch of natural philosophy, a philosophical and protoscientific tradition practiced throughout Europe, Africa, and Asia, originating in Greco-Roman Egypt in the first few centuries AD. It aims to purify, mature, and perfect certain objects. Common aims were chrysopoeia, the transmutation of "base metals" (e.g., lead) into "noble metals" (particularly gold); the creation of an elixir of immortality; the creation of panaceas able to cure any disease; and the development of an alkahest, a universal solvent. So, what was irrational with alchemy at the times Newton lived?
  - pif 8y ago
    By the way, please do not confuse true with believable: astrology is not true and not believable; cold fusion is not true but believable.
dexen 8y ago
Intelligence comes with its own particular blindspots. A person convinced of own intelligence is likely to follow a novel approach that is logical even if it goes against "widely established practices". I think we can easily name examples from our own industries; both positive and negative. This is a double-edged sword in that it can both cut through the cruft of outdated ideas & bad practices, as well as cut off valuable experience gathered through generations. Moreover a person with intelligence and deep experience in a particular subject runs increased risk of over-estimating own abilities in other, unrelated fields.

hutzlibu 8y ago

"Many cults have very logical belief systems predicated on a few twisted axioms. " Yeah well, I was once also part of such a weird cult which might be the oldest and powerful one - the catholic church.

studentrob 8y ago
> I was once also part of such a weird cult which might be the oldest and powerful one - the catholic church. I have a hard time vilifying any whole religion. At the same time, the more successful a doctrine, the larger and more attractive it becomes to people seeking power. Does this mean we should stop trying? Certainly not. I like Adler's "Individual Psychology" which I discovered from the book "The Courage to Be Disliked". He boils it down to three things, 1) Accept yourself 2) Have confidence in others 3) Contribute to others There is some nuance in the book, like for #2 you should not allow yourself to be easily duped.
- hutzlibu 8y ago
  "I have a hard time vilifying any whole religion." I don't do that. At least not the individiual (catholic) religious people and what they understand by beeing catholic (or muslim, or...) And I understand very well, what it gives to them, so why smart people choose to bend logic to make it a coherent view and todays church is a lot nicer than it used to be. But the whole dogmatic base of the bible (or qoran or talmud, etc.) I do vilify very much, yes. Because it just is plain evil by my standards. Racial superiorty, genocid, total obedience, killing and torturing of nonbelievers and heretics. The great Moses for example was great in this: Exodus 2/32 "And he said unto them: 'Thus saith the LORD, the God of Israel: Put ye every man his sword upon his thigh, and go to and fro from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour. And the sons of Levi did according to the word of Moses; and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men. And Moses said: 'Consecrate yourselves to-day to the LORD, for every man hath been against his son and against his brother; that He may also bestow upon you a blessing this day.' " Ask any christian about Moses and they tell you what a great guy he was ... but yes, most do not (want to) know about what the bible actually says about him.
  - studentrob 8y ago
    Fair point, thanks for clarifying. Often a short internet comment is not enough to convey full thoughts.

hycaria 8y ago

Do we have proof of the intelligence of said victims ?

doall 8y ago
I know an example. The Aum Shinrikyo, which is known as one of the most violent cults in Japanese history, had many elites from top universities including doctors, lawyers, graduate students and so on.

pif 8y ago

> If you convince an intelligent, rational person that those axioms are true, If you convince them that those axioms are true, than they are not intelligent nor rational.

sudhirj 8y ago
No, this kind of reductive thinking doesn’t hold. Ever heard of that alchemist quack who also did some math on the side? Newton, his name was.
- heavenlyblue 8y ago
  Newton lived in the 17th century.
- pif 8y ago
  From Wikipedia: Alchemy (from Arabic: al-kīmiyā) was an ancient branch of natural philosophy, a philosophical and protoscientific tradition practiced throughout Europe, Africa, and Asia, originating in Greco-Roman Egypt in the first few centuries AD. It aims to purify, mature, and perfect certain objects. Common aims were chrysopoeia, the transmutation of "base metals" (e.g., lead) into "noble metals" (particularly gold); the creation of an elixir of immortality; the creation of panaceas able to cure any disease; and the development of an alkahest, a universal solvent. So, what was irrational with alchemy at the times Newton lived?
- pif 8y ago
  By the way, please do not confuse true with believable: astrology is not true and not believable; cold fusion is not true but believable.

dexen 8y ago

Intelligence comes with its own particular blindspots. A person convinced of own intelligence is likely to follow a novel approach that is logical even if it goes against "widely established practices". I think we can easily name examples from our own industries; both positive and negative. This is a double-edged sword in that it can both cut through the cruft of outdated ideas & bad practices, as well as cut off valuable experience gathered through generations. Moreover a person with intelligence and deep experience in a particular subject runs increased risk of over-estimating own abilities in other, unrelated fields.