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The strongest possible interpretation of "You can't judge China by the same standards as modern, highly educated western democracies" is that it's wrong to judg

The strongest possible interpretation of "You can't judge China by the same standards as modern, highly educated western democracies" is that it's wrong to judge China for locking up more than a million people of a specific ethnicity in concentration camps. I'm not sure what other interpretation there is. As I said before, Andrew Jackson had similar justifications when he ordered the removal of Native Americans. It was wrong then despite the fact that America wasn't a modern democracy at the time (since most people lacked the right to vote). And FDR had similar justifications when he rounded up Japanese Americans. That was wrong as well. I'm not sure why it's so hard to reach a consensus that ethnic concentration camps should be universally condemned without devolving into a nationalistic flame war about who committed the worst atrocities.

tepidandroid 7y ago
Once again, context matters. The context of the sentence: >"You can't judge China by the same standards as modern, highly educated western democracies" was one of mass surveillance and the social media crackdown and absolutely does not pertain to any camps of any kind. You are once again not responding to the strongest plausible interpretation of what I have said, instead choosing to argue against a straw-man and then repeating your point about how Andrew Jackson carried out genocide. Do you see the problem?
- learc83 7y ago
  My apologies. Since that was your final paragraph I took it as your overall conclusion. I didn't realize that the quoted paragraph was exclusively referring to your point about surveillance. So to be clear you unambiguously condemn the Chinese government for their role in operating ethnic internment camps, and while you disagree with the specifics, you agree that they are operating ethnic internment camps? Also you don't think it's wrong to judge the Chinese government for doing this?
  - tepidandroid 7y ago
    > So to be clear you unambiguously condemn the Chinese government for their role in operating ethnic internment camps, and while you disagree with the specifics, you agree that they are operating ethnic internment camps? No. I don't unambiguously condemn the Chinese government for their role in operating ethnic internment camps because it is not at all unambiguous that this is what they are doing. Why should I? What they are doing and what they are trying to accomplish is operating extremist "re-education" camps due to the many terrorist incidents in the region [1] including the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of Han Chinese (which, by the way, is never mentioned anywhere to contextualize the CCP's actions, nor is it condemned). I don't dispute that many people put there are indeed of ethnic Uighur in origin but their ideology is of primary concern, not their ethnicity. I do believe there is such a thing as "wrong-think" when it comes to extremist ideology. I don't dispute that many of them are likely innocent of harbouring extremist ideology and placed there against their will -I will always condemn the detainment of innocents. >Also you don't think it's wrong to judge the Chinese government for doing this? Before rushing to grab the pitchforks, let's pause for a second to consider two facts: 1. There were numerous religion-fuelled [2] terrorist incidents in the region (machete attacks, car bombs, plane hijackings, etc). 2. There were episodes of ethnic cleansing resulting in mass civilian casualties in the region, carried out by thousands of anonymous, unidentifiable ethnic minorities against Han Chinese (we know this because all the casualties were Han Chinese). Only a tiny fraction of those involved were ever held responsible for their actions and prosecuted. What would be the appropriate way to handle the situation to prevent further loss of life and regional destabilization? Would you invite international condemnation and sanctions by placing millions of ethnic minorities into concentration camps, tearing them from their families in order to torture or work them to death? If it's obvious to any layman that this would only incite more international scrutiny, more terrorism, and more destabilization, don't you think it would be obvious to the policy planners in charge as well? Contrary to common knowledge, China has dozens of culturally diverse, minority ethnic groups. Their cultures are often promoted and showcased as a matter of national pride. Almost none of them clash with the CCP, and tourism is in fact encouraged in those poorer, rural areas to help subsidize the locals' incomes. What could the CCP possibly hope to achieve by specifically targeting and crushing Uighur culture for the sole purpose of doing so? The CCP, pragmatic as only an authoritarian, technocracy can be, opted for forceful "re-education" and augmented surveillance in order to prevent further terrorist events and to stamp out religious extremism. Is that really so hard to believe? You may condemn the inevitable abuses carried out by individuals with authority within these camps, which occurs not as a matter of official policy but as a matter of human nature. You may condemn the CCP for being hard-handed in their response to domestic terrorism. You may condemn the inevitable but incidental detention of innocents which will result from such actions. You may not condemn the CCP based on unsubstantiated, editorialized headlines designed by the mainstream media to advance a political narrative. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Chronology_of_major_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Chronology_... [2] "We have to conquer our own country and purify it of all infidels. Then, we should conquer the infidels' countries and spread Islam. The infidels who are usurping our countries have announced war against Islam and Muslims, forcing Muslims to abandon Islam and change their beliefs." – Abdullah Mansour, current leader of the Uyghur separatist movement Turkistan Islamic Party (East Turkestan Islamic Movement), from "The Duty of Faith and Support," Voice of Islam/al-Fajr Media Center, August 26, 2009.

tepidandroid 7y ago

Once again, context matters. The context of the sentence: >"You can't judge China by the same standards as modern, highly educated western democracies" was one of mass surveillance and the social media crackdown and absolutely does not pertain to any camps of any kind. You are once again not responding to the strongest plausible interpretation of what I have said, instead choosing to argue against a straw-man and then repeating your point about how Andrew Jackson carried out genocide. Do you see the problem?

learc83 7y ago
My apologies. Since that was your final paragraph I took it as your overall conclusion. I didn't realize that the quoted paragraph was exclusively referring to your point about surveillance. So to be clear you unambiguously condemn the Chinese government for their role in operating ethnic internment camps, and while you disagree with the specifics, you agree that they are operating ethnic internment camps? Also you don't think it's wrong to judge the Chinese government for doing this?
- tepidandroid 7y ago
  > So to be clear you unambiguously condemn the Chinese government for their role in operating ethnic internment camps, and while you disagree with the specifics, you agree that they are operating ethnic internment camps? No. I don't unambiguously condemn the Chinese government for their role in operating ethnic internment camps because it is not at all unambiguous that this is what they are doing. Why should I? What they are doing and what they are trying to accomplish is operating extremist "re-education" camps due to the many terrorist incidents in the region [1] including the ethnic cleansing of hundreds of Han Chinese (which, by the way, is never mentioned anywhere to contextualize the CCP's actions, nor is it condemned). I don't dispute that many people put there are indeed of ethnic Uighur in origin but their ideology is of primary concern, not their ethnicity. I do believe there is such a thing as "wrong-think" when it comes to extremist ideology. I don't dispute that many of them are likely innocent of harbouring extremist ideology and placed there against their will -I will always condemn the detainment of innocents. >Also you don't think it's wrong to judge the Chinese government for doing this? Before rushing to grab the pitchforks, let's pause for a second to consider two facts: 1. There were numerous religion-fuelled [2] terrorist incidents in the region (machete attacks, car bombs, plane hijackings, etc). 2. There were episodes of ethnic cleansing resulting in mass civilian casualties in the region, carried out by thousands of anonymous, unidentifiable ethnic minorities against Han Chinese (we know this because all the casualties were Han Chinese). Only a tiny fraction of those involved were ever held responsible for their actions and prosecuted. What would be the appropriate way to handle the situation to prevent further loss of life and regional destabilization? Would you invite international condemnation and sanctions by placing millions of ethnic minorities into concentration camps, tearing them from their families in order to torture or work them to death? If it's obvious to any layman that this would only incite more international scrutiny, more terrorism, and more destabilization, don't you think it would be obvious to the policy planners in charge as well? Contrary to common knowledge, China has dozens of culturally diverse, minority ethnic groups. Their cultures are often promoted and showcased as a matter of national pride. Almost none of them clash with the CCP, and tourism is in fact encouraged in those poorer, rural areas to help subsidize the locals' incomes. What could the CCP possibly hope to achieve by specifically targeting and crushing Uighur culture for the sole purpose of doing so? The CCP, pragmatic as only an authoritarian, technocracy can be, opted for forceful "re-education" and augmented surveillance in order to prevent further terrorist events and to stamp out religious extremism. Is that really so hard to believe? You may condemn the inevitable abuses carried out by individuals with authority within these camps, which occurs not as a matter of official policy but as a matter of human nature. You may condemn the CCP for being hard-handed in their response to domestic terrorism. You may condemn the inevitable but incidental detention of innocents which will result from such actions. You may not condemn the CCP based on unsubstantiated, editorialized headlines designed by the mainstream media to advance a political narrative. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Chronology_of_major_events https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorism_in_China#Chronology_... [2] "We have to conquer our own country and purify it of all infidels. Then, we should conquer the infidels' countries and spread Islam. The infidels who are usurping our countries have announced war against Islam and Muslims, forcing Muslims to abandon Islam and change their beliefs." – Abdullah Mansour, current leader of the Uyghur separatist movement Turkistan Islamic Party (East Turkestan Islamic Movement), from "The Duty of Faith and Support," Voice of Islam/al-Fajr Media Center, August 26, 2009.