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I thought the laws of economics told us that immigration and international trade increase prosperity.

Mikeb85 8y ago
The 'laws' of economics are based on supply and demand. The effects of migration and trade are based on a slew of factors, including supply/demand for labour in both the host country and the home country, wages, benefits in both countries, etc... Trade effects depend a lot on tariffs, costs in countries on each side of the trade, and those in turn are largely the effect of supply/demand both for goods and labour in countries on both sides of the trade.
rukittenme 8y ago
In absolute terms immigration does increase prosperity. But lower income, domestic laborers would suffer in the near term. Its a matter of priorities I suppose.
- akvadrako 8y ago
  That’s not what we see. Only certain kinds of immigrants during certain periods result in prosperity - it’s not a rule.
deogeo 8y ago
Those 'laws' are untainted by contact with reality. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage: " ... none of the world's most successful trading regions, including Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and now mainland China, reached their current status by adopting neoliberal trading rules."
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  > Those 'laws' are untainted by contact with reality. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage: " ... none of the world's most successful trading regions, including Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and now mainland China, reached their current status by adopting neoliberal trading rules." What a gross way to misrepresent that article, the source of that quote, and the established consensus. That quote is not "from Wikipedia" any more than it is from yourself (or from HN for that matter) just because you happened to copy-paste it here. That quote is from one critic whom Wikipedia happens to cite just for the sake of illustrating what counterclaims exist out there. If you really want to quote Wikipedia, why not quote the couple paragraphs before, which actually address what the consensus is: Several arguments have been advanced against using comparative advantage as a justification for advocating free trade, and they have gained an audience among economists. [...] However, the overwhelming consensus of the economics profession remains that while these arguments are theoretically valid under certain assumptions, these assumptions do not usually hold and should not be used to guide trade policy. Gregory Mankiw, chairman of the Harvard Economics Department, has said: ″Few propositions command as much consensus among professional economists as that open world trade increases economic growth and raises living standards.″ Now your quote doesn't look so much like an established fact, does it?
  - deogeo 8y ago
    The quote may be from one critic, but it talks about fact, not 'economic consensus'. Are you saying those countries did reach their current status with neoliberal trading rules?
    - mehrdadn 8y ago
      > Are you saying those countries did reach their current status with neoliberal trading rules? The one and only thing I'm saying here is that you need to represent your sources and the sides of an argument honestly.
      - deogeo 8y ago
        Noted, but that quote doesn't imply economic consensus or opinion, and it is not an argument - it is a dry statement of fact. So I don't think I misrepresented anything.
fjsolwmv 8y ago
Only of you believe that foreign born people's wealth counts as prosperity, which parent poster does not.

The 'laws' of economics are based on supply and demand. The effects of migration and trade are based on a slew of factors, including supply/demand for labour in both the host country and the home country, wages, benefits in both countries, etc... Trade effects depend a lot on tariffs, costs in countries on each side of the trade, and those in turn are largely the effect of supply/demand both for goods and labour in countries on both sides of the trade.

rukittenme 8y ago

In absolute terms immigration does increase prosperity. But lower income, domestic laborers would suffer in the near term. Its a matter of priorities I suppose.

akvadrako 8y ago
That’s not what we see. Only certain kinds of immigrants during certain periods result in prosperity - it’s not a rule.

deogeo 8y ago

Those 'laws' are untainted by contact with reality. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage: " ... none of the world's most successful trading regions, including Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and now mainland China, reached their current status by adopting neoliberal trading rules."

mehrdadn 8y ago
> Those 'laws' are untainted by contact with reality. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_advantage: " ... none of the world's most successful trading regions, including Japan, Korea, Taiwan, and now mainland China, reached their current status by adopting neoliberal trading rules." What a gross way to misrepresent that article, the source of that quote, and the established consensus. That quote is not "from Wikipedia" any more than it is from yourself (or from HN for that matter) just because you happened to copy-paste it here. That quote is from one critic whom Wikipedia happens to cite just for the sake of illustrating what counterclaims exist out there. If you really want to quote Wikipedia, why not quote the couple paragraphs before, which actually address what the consensus is: Several arguments have been advanced against using comparative advantage as a justification for advocating free trade, and they have gained an audience among economists. [...] However, the overwhelming consensus of the economics profession remains that while these arguments are theoretically valid under certain assumptions, these assumptions do not usually hold and should not be used to guide trade policy. Gregory Mankiw, chairman of the Harvard Economics Department, has said: ″Few propositions command as much consensus among professional economists as that open world trade increases economic growth and raises living standards.″ Now your quote doesn't look so much like an established fact, does it?
- deogeo 8y ago
  The quote may be from one critic, but it talks about fact, not 'economic consensus'. Are you saying those countries did reach their current status with neoliberal trading rules?
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    > Are you saying those countries did reach their current status with neoliberal trading rules? The one and only thing I'm saying here is that you need to represent your sources and the sides of an argument honestly.
    - deogeo 8y ago
      Noted, but that quote doesn't imply economic consensus or opinion, and it is not an argument - it is a dry statement of fact. So I don't think I misrepresented anything.

fjsolwmv 8y ago

Only of you believe that foreign born people's wealth counts as prosperity, which parent poster does not.