3 ms·

So you originally listed "grit, determination, and empathy". Now you add "smart, hard working, decent". See my point?

toomuchtodo 7y ago
Smart people are curious, hard working people have grit, and decent people have empathy. Where’s the disconnect? You feel like I’m moving the goalposts, I feel like this is just common sense. My apologies if I didn’t make my thoughts more clear.
- tastroder 7y ago
  >Where’s the disconnect? I see a disconnect in the way you describe those people and the motivation I'd generally ascribe to persons with these traits. Smart and hard working folk often seek the path of higher ed because it has more to offer than a random job with X months of training that's unlikely to be challenging, why would they be interested in that? Aside: does the US still not have IT apprenticeships?
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    Most smart people I know have no degree and learned on the job. I know many more people that regret their degree and the money and time spent then don’t. A random job pays you and provides skills and networking opportunities, a degree is a cost center with no guarantee of ROI. American IT apprenticeships are unofficial, and usually start as junior sysadmin/networking/infra/SWE roles, although I do know people who started as customer service or business analysts who transitioned to the tech side due to aptitude. Side note: There are large enterprises who are publicly announcing they’re dropping a degree requirement for their roles. Definitely points to where the market is headed.
    - tastroder 7y ago
      Guess we might chalk that up to regional differences, around here employees have a wide range of possibilities (including paid apprenticeships that likely come close to what you have in mind) and switching industries afterwards is kind of rare, at least in mentally demanding positions. I don't really see your side note happening here in Germany, for higher level positions dropping degree requirements is (in my experience) usually only done post factum if a fitting applicant happens to appear, usually with relevant experience instead. In my view that reflects a lack of formal education in the applicant pool more than it does changing requirements in the market.

Smart people are curious, hard working people have grit, and decent people have empathy. Where’s the disconnect? You feel like I’m moving the goalposts, I feel like this is just common sense. My apologies if I didn’t make my thoughts more clear.

tastroder 7y ago
>Where’s the disconnect? I see a disconnect in the way you describe those people and the motivation I'd generally ascribe to persons with these traits. Smart and hard working folk often seek the path of higher ed because it has more to offer than a random job with X months of training that's unlikely to be challenging, why would they be interested in that? Aside: does the US still not have IT apprenticeships?
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  Most smart people I know have no degree and learned on the job. I know many more people that regret their degree and the money and time spent then don’t. A random job pays you and provides skills and networking opportunities, a degree is a cost center with no guarantee of ROI. American IT apprenticeships are unofficial, and usually start as junior sysadmin/networking/infra/SWE roles, although I do know people who started as customer service or business analysts who transitioned to the tech side due to aptitude. Side note: There are large enterprises who are publicly announcing they’re dropping a degree requirement for their roles. Definitely points to where the market is headed.
  - tastroder 7y ago
    Guess we might chalk that up to regional differences, around here employees have a wide range of possibilities (including paid apprenticeships that likely come close to what you have in mind) and switching industries afterwards is kind of rare, at least in mentally demanding positions. I don't really see your side note happening here in Germany, for higher level positions dropping degree requirements is (in my experience) usually only done post factum if a fitting applicant happens to appear, usually with relevant experience instead. In my view that reflects a lack of formal education in the applicant pool more than it does changing requirements in the market.