7 ms·

Hiding behind ToS is ridiculous. Nobody reads them and a moral company should never assume that because its in the ToS they actually have informed consent.

MichaelBravo 7y ago
TOS agreements should be illegal in the US, especially those that try to circumvent our 'Freedoms of Speech'.
- MichaelBravo 7y ago
  Not that our Govt. will do anything about it. The zealously outspiken Socialist-Left are getiing away with what they like & are the ones that are profiting by blocking or Amendment Freedoms that they disagree with while forcing us to have Christian Bakeries bake homosexual & perverted penis shaped cakes. Wbat happened to a business has the right to refuse service?
- cannonedhamster 7y ago
  Define socialism and let me know how economic theory impacts civil liberties. The US has had socialist programs for a long time and hasn't devolved into madness. If I recall correctly it's been the conservative Congress that has stripped protections by establishing "free speech zones", they pushed through the Patriot Act which stripped more civil liberties, they expanded the surveillance state, they removed civil liberties from everyone within 100 miles of the border to include airports. But you're right a business being told it can't discriminate against people when baking a cake is the absolute worst possible outcome. The cake maker had their artistic rights upheld by the courts as well, so I'm not sure what you're particularly upset about. Those other things I mentioned are still ongoing. I think perhaps you would benefit from adjusting your perspective and spending your valuable time where it actually could be impactful and useful to yourself and other citizens.
  - MichaelBravo 7y ago
    Your just as brainwashed as the rest of the idiots claiming that everyone in the US is entitled to have a good paternal government that takes care of them. Well takes care of every one but Anglo-Saxon & other white European Males. Our country was not founded to have a great paternal central government taking care of your lazy asses. Our central govt was only supposed to maintain a standing Navy for national defense, bring together each the States Armies in times of crises, make sure that Each State only passed laws that were Constitutional & other minor doings. The minimal taxes that the central govt received were to ensure said same & cover for the congressional delegates to assemble while maintaining what little the Small Central Government was supposed to do. Each State had its own soviern rights, though the centtral govt was slowly increasing from 1780's to 1860's, Lincolns actions single handedly destroyed our Constitutional States Rights & gave the Fed govt absolute power over our lives. This was further empowered by the actions of Wilson & FDR. The Socialist-Left that runs ramshod over our country now is this socialism to totalitarian communism. Though I was personally against it as it'd only bring us closer to Orwell's '1984' & "Big Brother", it wasn't just the conservative congress that pushed the patriot act as the vote was near unanimous. As for our civil rights, Natural Born Citizens have the rights of citizenship but immagrants were not guaranteed the right to citizenship.
cannonedhamster 7y ago
At what point is it your responsibility to verify that something you're using is keeping it's end of the bargain? Ceding all responsibility doesn't seem like the answer either. While forced arbitration and other crappy things in contracts suck, a company protecting itself against explicitly stupid or bad behavior seems reasonable. While it's reasonable to expect a consumer to understand hot coffee is hot, its unreasonable to say that a customer who has purchased coffee that gives them second degree burns had reasonable understanding of the risks. I think the only real solution would be putting customers through plain English video presentations of what rights are present or excluded for every piece of software. This would be terribly inconvenient, however it would make sure people only installed software they trusted and actually needed.
- admax88q 7y ago
  > Ceding all responsibility doesn't seem like the answer either. Whether I cede my responsibility or not does not excuse a company from acting morally or not. You can't act immorally and say its okay because your users have given informed consent, when you know for a fact that they don't. Studies show that it would take over a year for an average user to read all the EULAs that they agree to in a year. It is literally impossible for an average user to read all the agreements they "agree" to in the average case of a computer user. > I think the only real solution... I'm not sure that this problem needs a solution exactly. The status quo is fairly reasonable, companies are expected to act morally and when they don't they get called out in social media and people move on to other companies. The primary threat to this model working is when overly pedantic people on HN and other sites excuse companies actions by saying things like "Well actually you _did_ agree to it by the EULA, so you shouldn't be suprised that they took your first born child, next time pay more attention to what you agree to!"

MichaelBravo 7y ago

TOS agreements should be illegal in the US, especially those that try to circumvent our 'Freedoms of Speech'.

MichaelBravo 7y ago
Not that our Govt. will do anything about it. The zealously outspiken Socialist-Left are getiing away with what they like & are the ones that are profiting by blocking or Amendment Freedoms that they disagree with while forcing us to have Christian Bakeries bake homosexual & perverted penis shaped cakes. Wbat happened to a business has the right to refuse service?
cannonedhamster 7y ago
Define socialism and let me know how economic theory impacts civil liberties. The US has had socialist programs for a long time and hasn't devolved into madness. If I recall correctly it's been the conservative Congress that has stripped protections by establishing "free speech zones", they pushed through the Patriot Act which stripped more civil liberties, they expanded the surveillance state, they removed civil liberties from everyone within 100 miles of the border to include airports. But you're right a business being told it can't discriminate against people when baking a cake is the absolute worst possible outcome. The cake maker had their artistic rights upheld by the courts as well, so I'm not sure what you're particularly upset about. Those other things I mentioned are still ongoing. I think perhaps you would benefit from adjusting your perspective and spending your valuable time where it actually could be impactful and useful to yourself and other citizens.
- MichaelBravo 7y ago
  Your just as brainwashed as the rest of the idiots claiming that everyone in the US is entitled to have a good paternal government that takes care of them. Well takes care of every one but Anglo-Saxon & other white European Males. Our country was not founded to have a great paternal central government taking care of your lazy asses. Our central govt was only supposed to maintain a standing Navy for national defense, bring together each the States Armies in times of crises, make sure that Each State only passed laws that were Constitutional & other minor doings. The minimal taxes that the central govt received were to ensure said same & cover for the congressional delegates to assemble while maintaining what little the Small Central Government was supposed to do. Each State had its own soviern rights, though the centtral govt was slowly increasing from 1780's to 1860's, Lincolns actions single handedly destroyed our Constitutional States Rights & gave the Fed govt absolute power over our lives. This was further empowered by the actions of Wilson & FDR. The Socialist-Left that runs ramshod over our country now is this socialism to totalitarian communism. Though I was personally against it as it'd only bring us closer to Orwell's '1984' & "Big Brother", it wasn't just the conservative congress that pushed the patriot act as the vote was near unanimous. As for our civil rights, Natural Born Citizens have the rights of citizenship but immagrants were not guaranteed the right to citizenship.

cannonedhamster 7y ago

At what point is it your responsibility to verify that something you're using is keeping it's end of the bargain? Ceding all responsibility doesn't seem like the answer either. While forced arbitration and other crappy things in contracts suck, a company protecting itself against explicitly stupid or bad behavior seems reasonable. While it's reasonable to expect a consumer to understand hot coffee is hot, its unreasonable to say that a customer who has purchased coffee that gives them second degree burns had reasonable understanding of the risks. I think the only real solution would be putting customers through plain English video presentations of what rights are present or excluded for every piece of software. This would be terribly inconvenient, however it would make sure people only installed software they trusted and actually needed.

admax88q 7y ago
> Ceding all responsibility doesn't seem like the answer either. Whether I cede my responsibility or not does not excuse a company from acting morally or not. You can't act immorally and say its okay because your users have given informed consent, when you know for a fact that they don't. Studies show that it would take over a year for an average user to read all the EULAs that they agree to in a year. It is literally impossible for an average user to read all the agreements they "agree" to in the average case of a computer user. > I think the only real solution... I'm not sure that this problem needs a solution exactly. The status quo is fairly reasonable, companies are expected to act morally and when they don't they get called out in social media and people move on to other companies. The primary threat to this model working is when overly pedantic people on HN and other sites excuse companies actions by saying things like "Well actually you _did_ agree to it by the EULA, so you shouldn't be suprised that they took your first born child, next time pay more attention to what you agree to!"