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Exiting WWII Britain was fully competitive in computer technology, look particularly at the University of Manchester, home of the Williams Tube and many pioneer

by dfrage 7y ago

Exiting WWII Britain was fully competitive in computer technology, look particularly at the University of Manchester, home of the Williams Tube and many pioneering computers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_computers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchester_computers which Ferranti was barely able to move the needle in commercializing.

AtomicOrbital 7y ago
yes however Britain squeltched its own computer scientists and engineers, Tommy Flowers in particular, immediately after WWII due to false concerns of military secrecy
- dfrage 7y ago
  That's not reflected by the historical record of the U.K.'s post war pioneering computers, which I provided just one link to. Per Wikipedia Tommy Flowers couldn't get a bank loan because he couldn't cite his cryptoanalysis machines as proof he could do what he claimed he could do. "False concerns of military secrecy" when we were in an existential cold war with international socialism? That put so much of Europe under Soviet occupation? Or the cited severe lack of funding mechanisms and other things necessary for commercial success, going all the way to the concept of doing stuff outside the aegis of the government which included the public University of Manchester? The latter could and did make numerous record breaking computers, going at least as far as the early 1960s Atlas, a competitive microsecond cycle supercomputer that was the first to page. But this didn't translate into commercial success.
repolfx 7y ago
The UK had a small but modern computer industry in the 1980s, via Acorn and the resulting ARM chips that are world-beating today. It also had firms like RIM, Sinclair etc. Until ARM was sold to SoftBank it was the primary British high tech computer firm. Little known fact - ARM is one of the very few European tech firms that incentivised its employees with equity sharing. It was and still is standard for firms outside the USA to keep all equity for the founders and investors, with none for early employees. It's hard to know to what extent Acorn struggled to compete with Apple because of Europe-specific factors vs just bad luck: Acorn computers were very slow to get FCC regulatory approval in the USA, and they had a failure in their supply chain at a critical moment that pushed Brits towards buying US computers instead. They sold 300k machines but could only get 30k from the factories. There were a few other problems that stalled their expansion, and all this was taking place in the context of a country going through a major recession as Thatcher ended a government policy of employment targeting to bring inflation under control (inflation hit 22% in 1980). In the end they never recovered - US firms grew too strong and outcompeted them, despite initially stronger technology. Given that Acorn and ARM showed the same cycle of former employees becoming entrepreneurs and investors themselves, it's possible if things had worked out a bit differently for Acorn it could have been the "British Apple" and seeded a British computer industry competitive with Silicon Valley. But - it didn't.
- dfrage 7y ago
  How much of Acorn even having a chance is consistent with your correct as far as I know history of the British economy, with socialism only being (partly) rolled back by Thatcher? I'd also note that Apple et. al. were also subject to similar macroeconomic headwinds, although our inflation rate's peak was "only" 15%. Bad luck indeed, although looking at the details of e.g. the Acorn Electron which had that production bottleneck doesn't suggest they had significantly stronger technology at the time, pretty much all 6502 based stuff like their competition except for e.g. the also local Sinclair Research with its Z80 based systems. In the US market there was also the Z80 based and monstrously successful Tandy TRS-80, per Wikipedia significantly outselling the Apple II for a long period. Tandy also had a huge retail network to sell its wares, it's Radio Shack stores were the place to buy random basic electronic stuff all over the USA. Per Wikipedia, in 1982 4,300 company stores and 2,000 independent franchises in towns not big enough for a company store. One reason I mention this is to ask, how big was it in the U.K. post-WWII until Thatcher? It became a very big thing the US in the 1950s, combining local capital and market focus with centralized and bulk product planning, technology, marketing, and often purchasing. Hmmmm, Tandy also did a Motorola 6809 based "Color Computer" of some note, but its expensive/superior CPU prompted them to forgo things that made competing 6502 systems more popular, like built in sound and graphics for e.g. games. There was also a very American cottage industry style market in Z80 CP/M systems built around the S-100 bus.
  - repolfx 7y ago
    Radio Shack was pretty big in the UK. I remember them having stores when I was a kid. I think the general macro-economic and social conditions may explain why Acorn was rare, whereas the US birthed many such companies. But then again, the UK has less than a quarter of the population of the USA, so presumably that right there should slash the number of companies. I've also done a focus switch in this discussion, from all of Europe to just the UK. The rest of Europe was still very messed up outside of west Germany and the small northern states, either dictatorships, or just exited from dictatorship, or were France: https://uramericansinparis.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/france-in-the-1970s-%E2%80%93-a-time-of-decline-doubt-and-anti-americanism/ https://uramericansinparis.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/france-i... West Germany gave birth to SAP in 1972, UK gave birth to Acorn and a few other small computer firms that didn't really make it, only SAP and ARM still survive and only one independent. I don't know of any big French tech firms from this era, but maybe there is one. So I guess Acorn and maybe SAP are the exceptions that highlight just how dire conditions were in most of Europe at this time.

by dfrage 7y ago

AtomicOrbital 7y ago

yes however Britain squeltched its own computer scientists and engineers, Tommy Flowers in particular, immediately after WWII due to false concerns of military secrecy

dfrage 7y ago
That's not reflected by the historical record of the U.K.'s post war pioneering computers, which I provided just one link to. Per Wikipedia Tommy Flowers couldn't get a bank loan because he couldn't cite his cryptoanalysis machines as proof he could do what he claimed he could do. "False concerns of military secrecy" when we were in an existential cold war with international socialism? That put so much of Europe under Soviet occupation? Or the cited severe lack of funding mechanisms and other things necessary for commercial success, going all the way to the concept of doing stuff outside the aegis of the government which included the public University of Manchester? The latter could and did make numerous record breaking computers, going at least as far as the early 1960s Atlas, a competitive microsecond cycle supercomputer that was the first to page. But this didn't translate into commercial success.

repolfx 7y ago

The UK had a small but modern computer industry in the 1980s, via Acorn and the resulting ARM chips that are world-beating today. It also had firms like RIM, Sinclair etc. Until ARM was sold to SoftBank it was the primary British high tech computer firm. Little known fact - ARM is one of the very few European tech firms that incentivised its employees with equity sharing. It was and still is standard for firms outside the USA to keep all equity for the founders and investors, with none for early employees. It's hard to know to what extent Acorn struggled to compete with Apple because of Europe-specific factors vs just bad luck: Acorn computers were very slow to get FCC regulatory approval in the USA, and they had a failure in their supply chain at a critical moment that pushed Brits towards buying US computers instead. They sold 300k machines but could only get 30k from the factories. There were a few other problems that stalled their expansion, and all this was taking place in the context of a country going through a major recession as Thatcher ended a government policy of employment targeting to bring inflation under control (inflation hit 22% in 1980). In the end they never recovered - US firms grew too strong and outcompeted them, despite initially stronger technology. Given that Acorn and ARM showed the same cycle of former employees becoming entrepreneurs and investors themselves, it's possible if things had worked out a bit differently for Acorn it could have been the "British Apple" and seeded a British computer industry competitive with Silicon Valley. But - it didn't.

dfrage 7y ago
How much of Acorn even having a chance is consistent with your correct as far as I know history of the British economy, with socialism only being (partly) rolled back by Thatcher? I'd also note that Apple et. al. were also subject to similar macroeconomic headwinds, although our inflation rate's peak was "only" 15%. Bad luck indeed, although looking at the details of e.g. the Acorn Electron which had that production bottleneck doesn't suggest they had significantly stronger technology at the time, pretty much all 6502 based stuff like their competition except for e.g. the also local Sinclair Research with its Z80 based systems. In the US market there was also the Z80 based and monstrously successful Tandy TRS-80, per Wikipedia significantly outselling the Apple II for a long period. Tandy also had a huge retail network to sell its wares, it's Radio Shack stores were the place to buy random basic electronic stuff all over the USA. Per Wikipedia, in 1982 4,300 company stores and 2,000 independent franchises in towns not big enough for a company store. One reason I mention this is to ask, how big was it in the U.K. post-WWII until Thatcher? It became a very big thing the US in the 1950s, combining local capital and market focus with centralized and bulk product planning, technology, marketing, and often purchasing. Hmmmm, Tandy also did a Motorola 6809 based "Color Computer" of some note, but its expensive/superior CPU prompted them to forgo things that made competing 6502 systems more popular, like built in sound and graphics for e.g. games. There was also a very American cottage industry style market in Z80 CP/M systems built around the S-100 bus.
- repolfx 7y ago
  Radio Shack was pretty big in the UK. I remember them having stores when I was a kid. I think the general macro-economic and social conditions may explain why Acorn was rare, whereas the US birthed many such companies. But then again, the UK has less than a quarter of the population of the USA, so presumably that right there should slash the number of companies. I've also done a focus switch in this discussion, from all of Europe to just the UK. The rest of Europe was still very messed up outside of west Germany and the small northern states, either dictatorships, or just exited from dictatorship, or were France: https://uramericansinparis.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/france-in-the-1970s-%E2%80%93-a-time-of-decline-doubt-and-anti-americanism/ https://uramericansinparis.wordpress.com/2010/12/15/france-i... West Germany gave birth to SAP in 1972, UK gave birth to Acorn and a few other small computer firms that didn't really make it, only SAP and ARM still survive and only one independent. I don't know of any big French tech firms from this era, but maybe there is one. So I guess Acorn and maybe SAP are the exceptions that highlight just how dire conditions were in most of Europe at this time.