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I agree with the article insofar as that learning a language solely via an app is not effective. However, I do not get the impression that the author actually h

I agree with the article insofar as that learning a language solely via an app is not effective. However, I do not get the impression that the author actually has much experience learning languages through other means. > The phrase “learning a language” is deceptively reductive. A language isn’t a > singular monolith, but rather a complex interconnected system of components > that build a way to communicate. The lexicon consists of the individual > words, which speakers have to memorize. The syntax and grammar tell speakers > how to properly structure those words in a sentence. Then there’s the writing > system, which is the visual representation of words or sounds that allow > words to be constructed (for example, in English, the writing system is the > alphabet). And, more importantly, there is also the task of learning the meaning of words in common idioms, as well as learning to recognize implicit meaning. Understanding syntax and individual words will never help you understand sentences like, for example, "sorry, I just had to get it out of my system". It will also not help you recognize the tone of a piece of writing. > Duolingo often just drops a new particle on you without much explanation of > what it does or even that it’s a particle at all. Memrise handles this a bit > better, with lessons dedicated to how certain particles and grammar work, but > it helps to have external lessons, an instructor, or best of all a native > speaker to help explain some of the finer points of nuance in a language’s > grammar. It is debatable whether external lessons have an advantage over lessons in a mobile app, but that a native speaker is "best of all" suited to explaining the grammar of a language is a bold-faced lie. Native speakers do usually not understand grammar at all, because they have no reason to. (They do, however, almost universally across cultures often love giving an answer to grammar-related questions that you ask them, to avoid admitting to their lack of understanding.) > You can learn as many words or sentences as you want, but until you’re able > to have a conversation with another person, you’ll never be fluent. [...] For > that reason alone, learning a language with an app should be a starting > point, not the end. If you make it through an entire Duolingo skill tree or a > Memrise lesson plan, it might be time to upgrade to an in-person class, or > you might want to find a native speaker to practice with. I think this more balanced assessment is the most important takeaway from the article. When learning any language, through any means, you will never progress beyond a basic level without practice. Practice does not necessarily have to entail having an in-person conversation, but you absolutely need to actually make use of the language skills you're acquiring: watch TV, write a blog, read a book, call someone, and so on. Personally, I don't really recommend taking an in-person class if you already use an app and a textbook to learn. Sure, you can ask the instructor questions about particular grammar points that you encounter in your studies, but generally, if you're asking questions about grammar, you're doing language learning wrong. The human brain is much better suited to understanding and producing human language than it is to parsing text from a Backus-Naur form, so that's what you should focus on. A Japanese child doesn't understand the purpose of every particle either, but she easily beats you in fluency. Related TED talk (good despite the sensationalist title): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0yGdNEWdn0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0yGdNEWdn0

viraptor 7y ago
> Personally, I don't really recommend taking an in-person class if you already use an app and a textbook to learn. I think there are cases where it really pays off to have a real lesson to improve your experience. There are situations which are not possible to explain in a concise/picture way, duolingo-style. They may be also hard to figure out from generic rules from a book. But having someone to ask - "so what is the reason behind this specific use?" can save you hours of study and many mistakes. Even worse, learning without interaction with someone who can correct you may result in you learning something that's not true. But you kept repeating it and it only became harder to get rid of the issue. That's my experience from learning Japanese from Duolingo and Rosetta.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
0x38B 7y ago
As far as taking an in-person class, if you tend to be the type to research things and think about them rather than doing them, then a class is an amazing resource: - other students to practice with (new friends who share an interest!) - a teacher you can ask questions and build a relationship with (if they're a native speaker, this can be motivating) - you're forced to listen, speak, read, and write, often before you feel ready I started with language courses, and lucked out with a great teacher and fun students. I spent lots of time with the language and advanced really quickly, and my classes were perfect places to try out my new knowledge. I still remember one day we were having some natives over to interview, and I racked my brain to come up with interesting questions; one of them was 'What's in your fridge at home?'. My point is that my class was a great place to try out what I was learning at home on my own time. Also lots of fun memories. --- I'd agree on asking questions about grammar; it's possible to study the language instead of learning it. What I mean is that studying and having the skills - speaking, writing, etc - are two very different things. As far as learning grammar, this cycle proved extremely effective for me: - Learn about grammar in class - Learn about grammar on my own (e.g. compare English and Russian grammar [1]) - notice new grammar in whatever I was listening or reading Jim Scrivener (an English teacher and teacher trainer) writes this about grammar in 'Learning Teaching' (p. 253): "It seems likely that learners have to do a number of things to be able to start making any new grammar item part of their own personal stock of language. They probably need to have _exposure_ to the language; they need to _notice_ and _understand_ itms being used; they need to _try using_ language themselves in 'safe' practice ways and in more demainding contexts; they need to _remember_ the things they have learnt." [2] So it follows from this that learning needs to be a very rich process - bursting at the seams with context and emotions and lots of words; where Duolingo and the others are more similar to a Greek salad: not bad, but you're not getting everything you need. So use language learning apps, but make sure your language learning diet is giving you everything: lots of exposure, time to notice and understand, opportunities to practice - from easy to demanding, and plenty of review. If you have a healthy diet - lots of exposure to the language - then you'll review grammar structures and words as a natural part of your listening/reading. 1: https://www.amazon.com/English-Grammar-Students-Russian-Learning/dp/0934034214 https://www.amazon.com/English-Grammar-Students-Russian-Lear... 2: https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=vPWdBgAAQBAJ&pg=PT8&dq=It+seems+likely+that+learners+have+to+do+a+number+of+things+to+be+able+to+start+making+any+new+grammar+item+part+of+their+own+personal+stock+of+language.&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwim1eL0h4LiAhWBpIsKHZjcAxYQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=It%20seems%20likely%20that%20learners%20have%20to%20do%20a%20number%20of%20things%20to%20be%20able%20to%20start%20making%20any%20new%20grammar%20item%20part%20of%20their%20own%20personal%20stock%20of%20language.&f=false https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=vPWdBgAAQBAJ&pg=PT8&dq=... (different book, same quote)

viraptor 7y ago

> Personally, I don't really recommend taking an in-person class if you already use an app and a textbook to learn. I think there are cases where it really pays off to have a real lesson to improve your experience. There are situations which are not possible to explain in a concise/picture way, duolingo-style. They may be also hard to figure out from generic rules from a book. But having someone to ask - "so what is the reason behind this specific use?" can save you hours of study and many mistakes. Even worse, learning without interaction with someone who can correct you may result in you learning something that's not true. But you kept repeating it and it only became harder to get rid of the issue. That's my experience from learning Japanese from Duolingo and Rosetta.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

0x38B 7y ago

As far as taking an in-person class, if you tend to be the type to research things and think about them rather than doing them, then a class is an amazing resource: - other students to practice with (new friends who share an interest!) - a teacher you can ask questions and build a relationship with (if they're a native speaker, this can be motivating) - you're forced to listen, speak, read, and write, often before you feel ready I started with language courses, and lucked out with a great teacher and fun students. I spent lots of time with the language and advanced really quickly, and my classes were perfect places to try out my new knowledge. I still remember one day we were having some natives over to interview, and I racked my brain to come up with interesting questions; one of them was 'What's in your fridge at home?'. My point is that my class was a great place to try out what I was learning at home on my own time. Also lots of fun memories. --- I'd agree on asking questions about grammar; it's possible to study the language instead of learning it. What I mean is that studying and having the skills - speaking, writing, etc - are two very different things. As far as learning grammar, this cycle proved extremely effective for me: - Learn about grammar in class - Learn about grammar on my own (e.g. compare English and Russian grammar [1]) - notice new grammar in whatever I was listening or reading Jim Scrivener (an English teacher and teacher trainer) writes this about grammar in 'Learning Teaching' (p. 253): "It seems likely that learners have to do a number of things to be able to start making any new grammar item part of their own personal stock of language. They probably need to have _exposure_ to the language; they need to _notice_ and _understand_ itms being used; they need to _try using_ language themselves in 'safe' practice ways and in more demainding contexts; they need to _remember_ the things they have learnt." [2] So it follows from this that learning needs to be a very rich process - bursting at the seams with context and emotions and lots of words; where Duolingo and the others are more similar to a Greek salad: not bad, but you're not getting everything you need. So use language learning apps, but make sure your language learning diet is giving you everything: lots of exposure, time to notice and understand, opportunities to practice - from easy to demanding, and plenty of review. If you have a healthy diet - lots of exposure to the language - then you'll review grammar structures and words as a natural part of your listening/reading. 1: https://www.amazon.com/English-Grammar-Students-Russian-Learning/dp/0934034214 https://www.amazon.com/English-Grammar-Students-Russian-Lear... 2: https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=vPWdBgAAQBAJ&pg=PT8&dq=It+seems+likely+that+learners+have+to+do+a+number+of+things+to+be+able+to+start+making+any+new+grammar+item+part+of+their+own+personal+stock+of+language.&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwim1eL0h4LiAhWBpIsKHZjcAxYQ6AEIJTAA#v=onepage&q=It%20seems%20likely%20that%20learners%20have%20to%20do%20a%20number%20of%20things%20to%20be%20able%20to%20start%20making%20any%20new%20grammar%20item%20part%20of%20their%20own%20personal%20stock%20of%20language.&f=false https://books.google.com.ua/books?id=vPWdBgAAQBAJ&pg=PT8&dq=... (different book, same quote)