7 ms·

Notice how I separately addressed JVM and Java. Java is already losing market share to JVM competitor languages. JVM is in a stronger position than Java, but

by dtech 7y ago

Notice how I separately addressed JVM and Java. Java is already losing market share to JVM competitor languages. JVM is in a stronger position than Java, but imagine a world were 15-10 years ago native compilation for JVM bytecode became available instead of 1 year ago. LLVM wouldn't have stood a chance. Kotlin and Scala (I'm not too familiar with Clojure and others) are hedging their bets and making JS/Webassembly and LLVM versions.

pjmlp 7y ago
JVM native compilation exists since 2000 for anyone willing to pay for it.
- aphexairlines 7y ago
  Do you mean with Excelsior JET? I tried to compile an application totaling 157MB in jars to native with it just now. After compiling for 2 hours it was still only 15% done. I had aggressive optimizations disabled.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Excelsior JET is only one among many. As for your problem, it looks very strange to me, only similar to compiling C and C++ on underpowered hardware.
    - ptx 7y ago
      Which are the other ones? I know of GCJ, which is dead, and Graal, which from what I hear takes hours to compile small programs.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Most commercial JVMs for embedded development. For example, PTC, Aicas, Aonix (now also owned by PTC), IBM RealTime WebSphere, some variants of J9, Android since version 5 (although it isn't technically a JVM), RobotVM, Codename ONE, GluonVM, IBM i JVM (uses OS/400 TIMI), JRockit.
fnordsensei 7y ago
I know for a fact that in the case of Clojure (and I assume the reasoning is similar for Kotlin and Scala) that targeting other ecosystems has nothing to do with "hedging", and everything to do with reaching other platforms and mediums.
repolfx 7y ago
LLVM would have been created even if free/open source, SubstrateVM style tech existed back then because LLVM was designed as a competitor to GCC for compiling C and C++. The JVM can run C/C++ code these days 'natively' (by JIT compiling LLVM bitcode using Sulong) but that's not what it was created to do. Also bear in mind LLVM is not really a JVM competitor despite the name. LLVM is a toolkit for building compilers, primarily, C/C++ compilers. Other languages that targeted it have had to do a lot of work to change LLVM for that language. It's not actually a "VM" in the JVM or V8 sense, for instance, it doesn't provide a garbage collector and LLVM bitcode is neither platform neutral nor a stable format.
- dtech 7y ago
  > Also bear in mind LLVM is not really a JVM competitor despite the name. LLVM is a toolkit for building compilers It started out as a (lower-level than JVM) VM and evolved into what it is now, mainly because of Apple's requirements and funding.
coldtea 7y ago
>Java is already losing market share to JVM competitor languages. Really, any examples? And not Go and Rust (down 30+ places in the TIOBE index compared to Java, and as insignificant as to not even exist in the global job market).
deleted 7y ago
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by dtech 7y ago

pjmlp 7y ago

JVM native compilation exists since 2000 for anyone willing to pay for it.

aphexairlines 7y ago
Do you mean with Excelsior JET? I tried to compile an application totaling 157MB in jars to native with it just now. After compiling for 2 hours it was still only 15% done. I had aggressive optimizations disabled.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Excelsior JET is only one among many. As for your problem, it looks very strange to me, only similar to compiling C and C++ on underpowered hardware.
  - ptx 7y ago
    Which are the other ones? I know of GCJ, which is dead, and Graal, which from what I hear takes hours to compile small programs.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Most commercial JVMs for embedded development. For example, PTC, Aicas, Aonix (now also owned by PTC), IBM RealTime WebSphere, some variants of J9, Android since version 5 (although it isn't technically a JVM), RobotVM, Codename ONE, GluonVM, IBM i JVM (uses OS/400 TIMI), JRockit.

fnordsensei 7y ago

I know for a fact that in the case of Clojure (and I assume the reasoning is similar for Kotlin and Scala) that targeting other ecosystems has nothing to do with "hedging", and everything to do with reaching other platforms and mediums.

repolfx 7y ago

LLVM would have been created even if free/open source, SubstrateVM style tech existed back then because LLVM was designed as a competitor to GCC for compiling C and C++. The JVM can run C/C++ code these days 'natively' (by JIT compiling LLVM bitcode using Sulong) but that's not what it was created to do. Also bear in mind LLVM is not really a JVM competitor despite the name. LLVM is a toolkit for building compilers, primarily, C/C++ compilers. Other languages that targeted it have had to do a lot of work to change LLVM for that language. It's not actually a "VM" in the JVM or V8 sense, for instance, it doesn't provide a garbage collector and LLVM bitcode is neither platform neutral nor a stable format.

dtech 7y ago
> Also bear in mind LLVM is not really a JVM competitor despite the name. LLVM is a toolkit for building compilers It started out as a (lower-level than JVM) VM and evolved into what it is now, mainly because of Apple's requirements and funding.

coldtea 7y ago

>Java is already losing market share to JVM competitor languages. Really, any examples? And not Go and Rust (down 30+ places in the TIOBE index compared to Java, and as insignificant as to not even exist in the global job market).

deleted 7y ago

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