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I would not go as far to say it's dying but it's heavily slowing down for sure. First because of the big move out of the "entreprise" software and secondly beca

I would not go as far to say it's dying but it's heavily slowing down for sure. First because of the big move out of the "entreprise" software and secondly because of Oracle legal team. It's definitely due to the licensing that Android is switching to Kotlin for example.

pjmlp 8y ago
Except that Kotlin still lags behind Java compiler speed and it is heavily dependent on Java libraries.
- erik_seaberg 8y ago
  Compiler speed is a fantastic tradeoff. I'm made of meat that runs at maybe 0.0001 MHz after coffee, so I want to offload anything I can to the compiler!
  - dunefox 8y ago
    That's a very sensible standpoint.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    I rather bet in platform languages, without extra layers to debug, FFI and additional tooling not available to all IDEs for the respective platform.
- realusername 8y ago
  All of these are technical issues which will be solved by Google eventually, I'm not worrying much about that, they definitely have the resources to make it work.
  - pjmlp 8y ago
    I bet that in 5 years Kotlin will have as much market as other alternative JVMs languages have today. And regarding Google, Kotlin is not among the beloved ChromeOS and Fuchsia languages. So it depends very much on their internal politics.
    - rptr_87 8y ago
      Is there any official language for ChromeOS? I believe it supports Most Android and Linux apps now.
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        Yes, it is called JavaScript. Android and Linux apps support is made via containers, aka they are not native to the OS, and isn't supported across all Chromebooks models being sold. And even then, there are support issues.
  - threeseed 8y ago
    Kotlin is owned by JetBrains not Google. And there is Kotlin-Native but the likelihood of JetBrains reimplementing the entire JVM SDK is pretty slim. Not to mention all of the common third party libraries e.g. Guava, HTTPClient.
    - realusername 8y ago
      > Kotlin is owned by JetBrains not Google. Yes but there's a lot of efforts from Google to support the language as well since now it's the new Android language.
      - pjmlp 8y ago
        Android supports Java, Kotlin and C++. Kotlin is just one option more, and the tooling is still not mature as Java. Specially in compile speed, incremental compilation, debugging, speed in type completion, FFI.
        realusername 8y ago
        I would not put C++ with the other ones, unfortunately Android has a lot of API only available from Java.
        pjmlp 8y ago
        Agreed about the 2nd class status of C++, still that is the official message, about all three languages. https://developer.android.com/guide/components/fundamentals?hl=en https://developer.android.com/guide/components/fundamentals?... "Android apps can be written using Kotlin, Java, and C++ languages. "
threeseed 8y ago
a) Java/JVM hasn't moved out of the enterprise space at all. Not sure where you got that idea. b) Android isn't switching to Kotlin because of licensing since it is a JVM language after all. It's purely because it is a much better language than Java and has great tooling courtesy of Jetbrains.
- realusername 8y ago
  > a) Java/JVM hasn't moved out of the enterprise space at all. Not sure where you got that idea. It's the opposite, it's that old school entreprise type software & frameworks are getting less used. > b) Android isn't switching to Kotlin because of licensing since it is a JVM language after all. It's purely because it is a much better language than Java and has great tooling courtesy of Jetbrains. I think it's a mix of both, getting sued by Oracle probably did not help.
  - PButtNutter 8y ago
    The stack overflow survey is a good source of info on this. Java is the 5th, but HTML/CSS is 2nd and SQl is 3rd. The only languages that are used more currently are Python and Javascript. https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology
bradleyjg 8y ago
PagerDuty, Zoom, Slack —- seems like a great time for enterprise software.
- scarface74 8y ago
  PagerDuty - losing money https://medium.com/memory-leak/pagerduty-s-1-analysis-an-ipo-alert-578d4a583df7 https://medium.com/memory-leak/pagerduty-s-1-analysis-an-ipo... Zoom - a tiny net income of 7.6 million https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/video-conferencing-company-zoom-files-to-go-public-is-profitable.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/video-conferencing-company-z... Slack - losing money. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-slack-ipo-idUSKCN1S21FD https://www.reuters.com/article/us-slack-ipo-idUSKCN1S21FD So why is it a “great time” for enterprise software?
- realusername 8y ago
  By entreprise software, I mean the traditional heavy Java frameworks & tooling.
  - oaiey 8y ago
    That is not Enterprise Software. It is less the language and the frameworks which are making it Enterprise but the requirements placed on them and the software development lifecycles. Imagine you do a medical product and the regulations needed for FDA approval require you to check for vulnerabilities in your product and build infrastructure. Have you ever checked all packages in a npm dependency tree for vulnerabilities?
    - realusername 8y ago
      > Imagine you do a medical product and the regulations needed for FDA approval require you to check for vulnerabilities in your product and build infrastructure. Have you ever checked all packages in a npm dependency tree for vulnerabilities? The same way as any other language? With audits? I don't get your comment.
      - 8y ago

pjmlp 8y ago

Except that Kotlin still lags behind Java compiler speed and it is heavily dependent on Java libraries.

erik_seaberg 8y ago
Compiler speed is a fantastic tradeoff. I'm made of meat that runs at maybe 0.0001 MHz after coffee, so I want to offload anything I can to the compiler!
- dunefox 8y ago
  That's a very sensible standpoint.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  I rather bet in platform languages, without extra layers to debug, FFI and additional tooling not available to all IDEs for the respective platform.
realusername 8y ago
All of these are technical issues which will be solved by Google eventually, I'm not worrying much about that, they definitely have the resources to make it work.
- pjmlp 8y ago
  I bet that in 5 years Kotlin will have as much market as other alternative JVMs languages have today. And regarding Google, Kotlin is not among the beloved ChromeOS and Fuchsia languages. So it depends very much on their internal politics.
  - rptr_87 8y ago
    Is there any official language for ChromeOS? I believe it supports Most Android and Linux apps now.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Yes, it is called JavaScript. Android and Linux apps support is made via containers, aka they are not native to the OS, and isn't supported across all Chromebooks models being sold. And even then, there are support issues.
- threeseed 8y ago
  Kotlin is owned by JetBrains not Google. And there is Kotlin-Native but the likelihood of JetBrains reimplementing the entire JVM SDK is pretty slim. Not to mention all of the common third party libraries e.g. Guava, HTTPClient.
  - realusername 8y ago
    > Kotlin is owned by JetBrains not Google. Yes but there's a lot of efforts from Google to support the language as well since now it's the new Android language.
    - pjmlp 8y ago
      Android supports Java, Kotlin and C++. Kotlin is just one option more, and the tooling is still not mature as Java. Specially in compile speed, incremental compilation, debugging, speed in type completion, FFI.
      - realusername 8y ago
        I would not put C++ with the other ones, unfortunately Android has a lot of API only available from Java.
        pjmlp 8y ago
        Agreed about the 2nd class status of C++, still that is the official message, about all three languages. https://developer.android.com/guide/components/fundamentals?hl=en https://developer.android.com/guide/components/fundamentals?... "Android apps can be written using Kotlin, Java, and C++ languages. "

threeseed 8y ago

a) Java/JVM hasn't moved out of the enterprise space at all. Not sure where you got that idea. b) Android isn't switching to Kotlin because of licensing since it is a JVM language after all. It's purely because it is a much better language than Java and has great tooling courtesy of Jetbrains.

realusername 8y ago
> a) Java/JVM hasn't moved out of the enterprise space at all. Not sure where you got that idea. It's the opposite, it's that old school entreprise type software & frameworks are getting less used. > b) Android isn't switching to Kotlin because of licensing since it is a JVM language after all. It's purely because it is a much better language than Java and has great tooling courtesy of Jetbrains. I think it's a mix of both, getting sued by Oracle probably did not help.
- PButtNutter 8y ago
  The stack overflow survey is a good source of info on this. Java is the 5th, but HTML/CSS is 2nd and SQl is 3rd. The only languages that are used more currently are Python and Javascript. https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology

bradleyjg 8y ago

PagerDuty, Zoom, Slack —- seems like a great time for enterprise software.

scarface74 8y ago
PagerDuty - losing money https://medium.com/memory-leak/pagerduty-s-1-analysis-an-ipo-alert-578d4a583df7 https://medium.com/memory-leak/pagerduty-s-1-analysis-an-ipo... Zoom - a tiny net income of 7.6 million https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/video-conferencing-company-zoom-files-to-go-public-is-profitable.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/22/video-conferencing-company-z... Slack - losing money. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-slack-ipo-idUSKCN1S21FD https://www.reuters.com/article/us-slack-ipo-idUSKCN1S21FD So why is it a “great time” for enterprise software?
realusername 8y ago
By entreprise software, I mean the traditional heavy Java frameworks & tooling.
- oaiey 8y ago
  That is not Enterprise Software. It is less the language and the frameworks which are making it Enterprise but the requirements placed on them and the software development lifecycles. Imagine you do a medical product and the regulations needed for FDA approval require you to check for vulnerabilities in your product and build infrastructure. Have you ever checked all packages in a npm dependency tree for vulnerabilities?
  - realusername 8y ago
    > Imagine you do a medical product and the regulations needed for FDA approval require you to check for vulnerabilities in your product and build infrastructure. Have you ever checked all packages in a npm dependency tree for vulnerabilities? The same way as any other language? With audits? I don't get your comment.
    - 8y ago