7 ms·

Well, mmm, good riddance? I suppose this will cause a lot of hardships to a lot of people who need to maintain JavaEE, but the fact that Java EE is no more is n

Well, mmm, good riddance? I suppose this will cause a lot of hardships to a lot of people who need to maintain JavaEE, but the fact that Java EE is no more is nothing but good. It is a nightmare case of overengineering.

DonHopkins 7y ago
Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.
- agumonkey 7y ago
  Nice joke (apparently bad taste for the HN crowd). That said is C# really great ? come on .. they have F#, and F > C. QED
  - marak830 7y ago
    Honestly I'm not joking, but I am a casual coder. I have only learnt what I need to do, to do certain things. Which compared to most here isn't that much. (See my other responses, I'd actually love some input there, just wish I had more time to learn) Edit: as to the reference to the last part of your comment, I have only been using what I knew to do the job I needed, I'm not a full time coder so I can't search the latest and greatest, another reason I picked this thread to ask :-)
    - agumonkey 7y ago
      What do you mean ? you only learned C# so you could work and have no time to learn things like F# ?
      - marak830 7y ago
        (you're correct to an extent) I learnt c# to do what I wanted in my free time, I haven't had time to look into alternatives. C# does what I need, and I either work out how to do what I need with that, or I can't do it (I'm not a full time coder, so I don't have time to research, learn and recode what I have done to something new)
- pjmlp 7y ago
  First C# needs to get into all the platforms where there is a Java compiler. And a proper story for something similar to Swing, not even considering JavaFX here. There is Xamarin, but again, the platforms with Java compilers available. And I am stating this as someone that works daily within .NET eco-system.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Which platform doesn’t have a C# compiler that matters?
    - sebazzz 7y ago
      Java cards
      - realusername 7y ago
        Java cards use a very limited version of Java, I would not put it in the same category. You can't just take your average random java code and run it on a java card.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        Well seeing that Java Cards don’t even run the full version of Java.....
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Yeah, but they surely don't run any version of .NET, not even an incomplete one.
        scarface74 7y ago
        So it’s really not running Java as defined by the specification...
        7y ago
- marak830 7y ago
  hand up uh not as experienced as most people on HN, what's the hate for c#? I went from vb6 to VB.net then c# and while I fully admit I'm a casual coder, i haven't had an issue (with what I do, which is voice to string primarily) so far. Is there something better for this I perhaps should look into?
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - dtech 7y ago
    The .NET ecosystem is an order of magnitude smaller than the JVM ecosystem. Up until ~3 years¹ ago C#/.NET also meant a fully Microsoft and Windows environment for all practical purposes². This is changing and Microsoft seems to be embracing open source and Linux, but it takes time for a 20 year old ecosystem to fully make the transition. ¹ The story is Steve Balmer was very anti-open source and forbade most interop or support for Linux, so this only could start changing when he left in 2014. ² You always had Mono with is why Unity and GNOME could also use C#, but is was very niche outside of Unity.
    - inapis 7y ago
      That fully Microsoft and windows stack has had ripple effects. At least from my perspective in South Asia. First the price was a deal breaker. Second, people who started with C# quickly found their only employment opportunities to be at large companies. Those who started with Java/Node/Ruby had a much wider array to choose from. Third, when people jumped to start their own companies, Java/Node/Ruby/Python/Go won by a large margin. Startups rarely had the cash to spare for Microsoft stack and MS stack guys had to change their skill sets which is a painful endeavour in and of itself. Fourth, after some time people, who had been in the market for years, started discouraging younger devs to committing exclusively to a full MS stack. People rather interpreted it as dumping the MS stack. In my batch, only a dozen or so people were interested in pursuing C#/.Net. By the time we graduated only one person was still pursuing that stack. TLDR; Price was a big factor which only large companies could afford. Not everyone can be employed by large companies. This had a lot of secondary effects.
- james_s_tayler 7y ago
  I switched to C# late last year. Oracle is just too much baggage to have hanging around when thinking about your career / future for me. Really didn't like the direction they are taking things when they announced their new release train and licencing model. Compared to that Microsoft have done an about face in recent years with a commitment to open source and first-class support for Linux and revamping their core offering with .NET Core. It's been a mostly smooth transition.
- threeseed 7y ago
  You can't be serious. JVM is still the best platform for any type of back-end application. It has the widest array of libraries, is proven to run on any type of hardware and comes standard on every OS and every cloud instance. .Net is a great platform and all but it still hasn't done enough to really merit switching teams. Especially when you have Scala, Kotlin, Clojure etc to pick from.
  - scarface74 7y ago
    Java doesn’t come standard on Windows, MacOS, or iOS. It’s also not standard on Windows based EC2 instances. But even if it does come “standard” on Linux. How many people actually count on the installed instances of runtimes and don’t install their own tested versions? For instance, Python 2.7 comes on a Windows EC2 AWS instance.
    - sigzero 7y ago
      For you what you use Java for it doesn't need to come "standard". I am not sure why Python is mentioned but it isn't close to a replacement.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        The parent post said “and comes standard on every OS and every cloud instance”. That is not true. I brought up Python as an example of a language that does come “standard” on “cloud instances”(and MacOS) but it’s an older version. Most people wouldn’t count on the bundled version of either.
    - fuck_google 7y ago
      Windows based EC2 instances represent maybe 10 % of all EC2 instances.
      - scarface74 7y ago
        https://aws.amazon.com/windows/ https://aws.amazon.com/windows/ We run nearly 2x more Windows Server instances than the next largest cloud provider, according to an IDC report.
- cmiles74 7y ago
  I think every Java developer should be familiar with C# and dotNet Core. There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up.
  - cesarb 7y ago
    > There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up. Could you recommend good tutorials/manuals for developers with Java experience to learn C# (preferably without having to install Windows)?
    - jayd16 7y ago
      Download Jetbrain's Rider IDE and I'm pretty sure it'll get you hacking away in no time.
    - cutler 7y ago
      If you're looking to get into C# 8.0 you're out of luck if using OS X. Visual Studio 2019 for Mac offers .Net Core 3.0 as an option if you have it installed but Mono hasn't caught up with C# 8.0 so isn't available. So much for cross-platform development - it seems OS X is still an afterthought.
      - philliphaydon 7y ago
        What would you need mono for? If you’re using .net core...
        cutler 7y ago
        Download Visual Studio for Mac 2019 and you won't find C# 8.0 listed under the project's language options. I'm referring to the Mac here where I understood Mono is still the way .Net Core is implemented.
      - jongalloway2 7y ago
        Why? On OSX, just use Visual Studio Code and .NET Core: https://weblogs.asp.net/dixin/c-8-0-in-depth-setup-c-8-0-and-net-core-3-0 https://weblogs.asp.net/dixin/c-8-0-in-depth-setup-c-8-0-and...
smadge 7y ago
I never used a flow blown Java EE web application server, but the various APIs I used like JDBC, JAX-RS, and JPA were generally well thought out and pleasant enough to work with. It would be a shame if these interfaces/specifications became proprietary.
- based2 7y ago
  These specs are reuse in MicroProfile: https://wiki.eclipse.org/MicroProfile/Implementation https://wiki.eclipse.org/MicroProfile/Implementation
- mbell 7y ago
  Without knowing it you have cherry picked possibly the only good parts of Java EE. The rest that constitute a 'full blown' Java EE stack are horrific disasters (JSF, EJB, etc).
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - floriol 7y ago
    Would you mind showing any platform's solution to the problems that java EE solves? I have yet to see any competitor technology solve transaction management as elegantly as EJB's does.
tootie 7y ago
Any organization that bought into JEE is probably willing to pay Oracle's license fees. That being said, I've literally never seen an org that preferred JEE to Spring and that includes numerous massive enterprises.
- le-mark 7y ago
  Spring is built on the good parts of JEE; servlet api, jdbc, etc.. so it's not immune to churn in this area.
  - jacques_chester 7y ago
    A lot of the good parts of the JEE were inspired by Spring, which can go ahead with ideas without needing to go through the JCP. There's a cyclical relationship between them. Disclosure: I work for Pivotal, we sponsor Spring.
    - tootie 7y ago
      In the early 2000s I did a lot of work with ATG Dynamo which was a proprietary Java app server. It was light years ahead of the top competitors (WebLogic or WebSphere back then). It had dependency injection, clear separation of logic and UI, a handy runtime inspector GUI that let you inspect the state of all your container-managed objects including user sessions i an real-time and modify them. The original J2EE borrowed heavily from it and ruined it.

DonHopkins 7y ago

Time to switch to C#. Funny how it took Oracle to do what C# originally intended to do: kill Java.

agumonkey 7y ago
Nice joke (apparently bad taste for the HN crowd). That said is C# really great ? come on .. they have F#, and F > C. QED
- marak830 7y ago
  Honestly I'm not joking, but I am a casual coder. I have only learnt what I need to do, to do certain things. Which compared to most here isn't that much. (See my other responses, I'd actually love some input there, just wish I had more time to learn) Edit: as to the reference to the last part of your comment, I have only been using what I knew to do the job I needed, I'm not a full time coder so I can't search the latest and greatest, another reason I picked this thread to ask :-)
  - agumonkey 7y ago
    What do you mean ? you only learned C# so you could work and have no time to learn things like F# ?
    - marak830 7y ago
      (you're correct to an extent) I learnt c# to do what I wanted in my free time, I haven't had time to look into alternatives. C# does what I need, and I either work out how to do what I need with that, or I can't do it (I'm not a full time coder, so I don't have time to research, learn and recode what I have done to something new)
pjmlp 7y ago
First C# needs to get into all the platforms where there is a Java compiler. And a proper story for something similar to Swing, not even considering JavaFX here. There is Xamarin, but again, the platforms with Java compilers available. And I am stating this as someone that works daily within .NET eco-system.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Which platform doesn’t have a C# compiler that matters?
  - sebazzz 7y ago
    Java cards
    - realusername 7y ago
      Java cards use a very limited version of Java, I would not put it in the same category. You can't just take your average random java code and run it on a java card.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      Well seeing that Java Cards don’t even run the full version of Java.....
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Yeah, but they surely don't run any version of .NET, not even an incomplete one.
        scarface74 7y ago
        So it’s really not running Java as defined by the specification...
        7y ago
marak830 7y ago
hand up uh not as experienced as most people on HN, what's the hate for c#? I went from vb6 to VB.net then c# and while I fully admit I'm a casual coder, i haven't had an issue (with what I do, which is voice to string primarily) so far. Is there something better for this I perhaps should look into?
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- dtech 7y ago
  The .NET ecosystem is an order of magnitude smaller than the JVM ecosystem. Up until ~3 years¹ ago C#/.NET also meant a fully Microsoft and Windows environment for all practical purposes². This is changing and Microsoft seems to be embracing open source and Linux, but it takes time for a 20 year old ecosystem to fully make the transition. ¹ The story is Steve Balmer was very anti-open source and forbade most interop or support for Linux, so this only could start changing when he left in 2014. ² You always had Mono with is why Unity and GNOME could also use C#, but is was very niche outside of Unity.
  - inapis 7y ago
    That fully Microsoft and windows stack has had ripple effects. At least from my perspective in South Asia. First the price was a deal breaker. Second, people who started with C# quickly found their only employment opportunities to be at large companies. Those who started with Java/Node/Ruby had a much wider array to choose from. Third, when people jumped to start their own companies, Java/Node/Ruby/Python/Go won by a large margin. Startups rarely had the cash to spare for Microsoft stack and MS stack guys had to change their skill sets which is a painful endeavour in and of itself. Fourth, after some time people, who had been in the market for years, started discouraging younger devs to committing exclusively to a full MS stack. People rather interpreted it as dumping the MS stack. In my batch, only a dozen or so people were interested in pursuing C#/.Net. By the time we graduated only one person was still pursuing that stack. TLDR; Price was a big factor which only large companies could afford. Not everyone can be employed by large companies. This had a lot of secondary effects.
james_s_tayler 7y ago
I switched to C# late last year. Oracle is just too much baggage to have hanging around when thinking about your career / future for me. Really didn't like the direction they are taking things when they announced their new release train and licencing model. Compared to that Microsoft have done an about face in recent years with a commitment to open source and first-class support for Linux and revamping their core offering with .NET Core. It's been a mostly smooth transition.
threeseed 7y ago
You can't be serious. JVM is still the best platform for any type of back-end application. It has the widest array of libraries, is proven to run on any type of hardware and comes standard on every OS and every cloud instance. .Net is a great platform and all but it still hasn't done enough to really merit switching teams. Especially when you have Scala, Kotlin, Clojure etc to pick from.
- scarface74 7y ago
  Java doesn’t come standard on Windows, MacOS, or iOS. It’s also not standard on Windows based EC2 instances. But even if it does come “standard” on Linux. How many people actually count on the installed instances of runtimes and don’t install their own tested versions? For instance, Python 2.7 comes on a Windows EC2 AWS instance.
  - sigzero 7y ago
    For you what you use Java for it doesn't need to come "standard". I am not sure why Python is mentioned but it isn't close to a replacement.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      The parent post said “and comes standard on every OS and every cloud instance”. That is not true. I brought up Python as an example of a language that does come “standard” on “cloud instances”(and MacOS) but it’s an older version. Most people wouldn’t count on the bundled version of either.
  - fuck_google 7y ago
    Windows based EC2 instances represent maybe 10 % of all EC2 instances.
    - scarface74 7y ago
      https://aws.amazon.com/windows/ https://aws.amazon.com/windows/ We run nearly 2x more Windows Server instances than the next largest cloud provider, according to an IDC report.
cmiles74 7y ago
I think every Java developer should be familiar with C# and dotNet Core. There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up.
- cesarb 7y ago
  > There is a lot of similarities between the languages and it will be easy for any Java developer to pick up. Could you recommend good tutorials/manuals for developers with Java experience to learn C# (preferably without having to install Windows)?
  - jayd16 7y ago
    Download Jetbrain's Rider IDE and I'm pretty sure it'll get you hacking away in no time.
  - cutler 7y ago
    If you're looking to get into C# 8.0 you're out of luck if using OS X. Visual Studio 2019 for Mac offers .Net Core 3.0 as an option if you have it installed but Mono hasn't caught up with C# 8.0 so isn't available. So much for cross-platform development - it seems OS X is still an afterthought.
    - philliphaydon 7y ago
      What would you need mono for? If you’re using .net core...
      - cutler 7y ago
        Download Visual Studio for Mac 2019 and you won't find C# 8.0 listed under the project's language options. I'm referring to the Mac here where I understood Mono is still the way .Net Core is implemented.
    - jongalloway2 7y ago
      Why? On OSX, just use Visual Studio Code and .NET Core: https://weblogs.asp.net/dixin/c-8-0-in-depth-setup-c-8-0-and-net-core-3-0 https://weblogs.asp.net/dixin/c-8-0-in-depth-setup-c-8-0-and...

smadge 7y ago

I never used a flow blown Java EE web application server, but the various APIs I used like JDBC, JAX-RS, and JPA were generally well thought out and pleasant enough to work with. It would be a shame if these interfaces/specifications became proprietary.

based2 7y ago
These specs are reuse in MicroProfile: https://wiki.eclipse.org/MicroProfile/Implementation https://wiki.eclipse.org/MicroProfile/Implementation
mbell 7y ago
Without knowing it you have cherry picked possibly the only good parts of Java EE. The rest that constitute a 'full blown' Java EE stack are horrific disasters (JSF, EJB, etc).
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- floriol 7y ago
  Would you mind showing any platform's solution to the problems that java EE solves? I have yet to see any competitor technology solve transaction management as elegantly as EJB's does.

tootie 7y ago

Any organization that bought into JEE is probably willing to pay Oracle's license fees. That being said, I've literally never seen an org that preferred JEE to Spring and that includes numerous massive enterprises.

le-mark 7y ago
Spring is built on the good parts of JEE; servlet api, jdbc, etc.. so it's not immune to churn in this area.
- jacques_chester 7y ago
  A lot of the good parts of the JEE were inspired by Spring, which can go ahead with ideas without needing to go through the JCP. There's a cyclical relationship between them. Disclosure: I work for Pivotal, we sponsor Spring.
  - tootie 7y ago
    In the early 2000s I did a lot of work with ATG Dynamo which was a proprietary Java app server. It was light years ahead of the top competitors (WebLogic or WebSphere back then). It had dependency injection, clear separation of logic and UI, a handy runtime inspector GUI that let you inspect the state of all your container-managed objects including user sessions i an real-time and modify them. The original J2EE borrowed heavily from it and ruined it.