5 ms·

> You can make it harder to do on accident, or to prevent someone from doing it for convenience Why are you discounting these as valuable use cases? In my exp

by yoz 7y ago

> You can make it harder to do on accident, or to prevent someone from doing it for convenience Why are you discounting these as valuable use cases? In my experience, they're far more common than the determinedly-malicious actor. And they're far, FAR more common than the malicious actor who also (a) knows that the exfil monitor is there, and (b) has the technical prowess to circumvent it. (The analog hole is only _trivially_ usable for certain kinds of data.) (I am continually frustrated by the number of people who claim that protection is worthless if it's potentially circumventable. In most situations, covering 90% of attacks is still worthwhile.)

ethbro 7y ago
> I am continually frustrated by the number of people who claim that protection is worthless if it's potentially circumventable. In most situations, covering 90% of attacks is still worthwhile People are saying that because it's misguided and potentially harmful. Doing so is security theater, where the solution is scoped down to something incomplete but easier, and then everyone walks away happy they solved 90% of the smaller problem they chose to attempt. Particularly with things like data exfiltration, this is potentially harmful because then you've organizationally blinded yourself. Nobody wants to poke holes in their own solution, and so they stop looking. But, hey, we're catching the odd employee accidentally sharing confidential documents via OneDrive. Fast forward a year, and an entire DB gets transferred out via an unknown vector, nobody finds out about it for a couple months, and it's all "Oh! How did this happen? We had monitoring in place." Go big, or run the risk of putting blinders on yourself.
- fencepost 7y ago
  The way I'm reading this, your attitude seems to be "if you can't stop targeted nation state actions you might as well not bother with network security and just run unencrypted wifi everywhere." Network security is a balancing act between prevention, detection, needed user and network capabilities and cost. If I have unlimited money or no limitations on hindering network usage I can make a 100% secure network - it's not even that expensive, just unplug it all.
hueving 7y ago
>covering 90% of attacks It doesn't cover most attacks. That's why it's so misleading. It mainly just protection against incompetent people from accidentally sending out data.
- RhodesianHunter 7y ago
  Which is what like 80% of data leaks?
jacobr1 7y ago
I agree. Locking my front door is trivially circumventable. It is pretty easy to pick up a rock and break a window. Or use a heavy instrument to break down the door. Or heck, a car could just go crashing through the wall. But that lock is a pretty good deterrent from casual abuse. It requires crossing a psychological barrier into the explicitly illegal and malicious realm.
- ricardobeat 7y ago
  That's a sensible analogy on the surface, but the difference is that having to lock the door doesn't - end up forcing you to lock it from the inside, and then crawl out the window - have your friend who is visiting request a door-opening-token 24hr in advance through a JIRA ticket - cause the power to go out once it's locked, also for security reasons - force you to replace the keys with 'special' plastic ones from a new third-party vendor - leave you stranded outside for a few hours because the door-opening system is having an outage Those are the kind of trade-offs that will be made, not simply the act of locking the door.
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    It's also the reason why people mail sensitive data to their private mailboxes and that no matter how hard some companies try, they can't make their employees stop using Excel as their primary work tool. 'arcbyte over at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827012 does have a point - a lot of potential exfil risk is caused by companies doing their best to make it as difficult as possible for their employees to do their jobs.

by yoz 7y ago

ethbro 7y ago

> I am continually frustrated by the number of people who claim that protection is worthless if it's potentially circumventable. In most situations, covering 90% of attacks is still worthwhile People are saying that because it's misguided and potentially harmful. Doing so is security theater, where the solution is scoped down to something incomplete but easier, and then everyone walks away happy they solved 90% of the smaller problem they chose to attempt. Particularly with things like data exfiltration, this is potentially harmful because then you've organizationally blinded yourself. Nobody wants to poke holes in their own solution, and so they stop looking. But, hey, we're catching the odd employee accidentally sharing confidential documents via OneDrive. Fast forward a year, and an entire DB gets transferred out via an unknown vector, nobody finds out about it for a couple months, and it's all "Oh! How did this happen? We had monitoring in place." Go big, or run the risk of putting blinders on yourself.

fencepost 7y ago
The way I'm reading this, your attitude seems to be "if you can't stop targeted nation state actions you might as well not bother with network security and just run unencrypted wifi everywhere." Network security is a balancing act between prevention, detection, needed user and network capabilities and cost. If I have unlimited money or no limitations on hindering network usage I can make a 100% secure network - it's not even that expensive, just unplug it all.

hueving 7y ago

>covering 90% of attacks It doesn't cover most attacks. That's why it's so misleading. It mainly just protection against incompetent people from accidentally sending out data.

RhodesianHunter 7y ago
Which is what like 80% of data leaks?

jacobr1 7y ago

I agree. Locking my front door is trivially circumventable. It is pretty easy to pick up a rock and break a window. Or use a heavy instrument to break down the door. Or heck, a car could just go crashing through the wall. But that lock is a pretty good deterrent from casual abuse. It requires crossing a psychological barrier into the explicitly illegal and malicious realm.

ricardobeat 7y ago
That's a sensible analogy on the surface, but the difference is that having to lock the door doesn't - end up forcing you to lock it from the inside, and then crawl out the window - have your friend who is visiting request a door-opening-token 24hr in advance through a JIRA ticket - cause the power to go out once it's locked, also for security reasons - force you to replace the keys with 'special' plastic ones from a new third-party vendor - leave you stranded outside for a few hours because the door-opening system is having an outage Those are the kind of trade-offs that will be made, not simply the act of locking the door.
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  It's also the reason why people mail sensitive data to their private mailboxes and that no matter how hard some companies try, they can't make their employees stop using Excel as their primary work tool. 'arcbyte over at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827012 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19827012 does have a point - a lot of potential exfil risk is caused by companies doing their best to make it as difficult as possible for their employees to do their jobs.