6 ms·

> Driving everywhere in Houston results in a hell of a lot higher quality of life than riding public transit everywhere in Boston. I'd really like to see how

by aqme28 8y ago

> Driving everywhere in Houston results in a hell of a lot higher quality of life than riding public transit everywhere in Boston. I'd really like to see how you come to this conclusion.

lotsofpulp 8y ago
More control of when you leave/arrive, storage space to transport things, not dealing with other people, ability to go wherever you want, air conditioning. There are downsides like traffic, car maintenance, and parking, but in general, cars are probably more comfortable than public transit in the US. I'm also ignoring externalities like pollution and unsustainable suburban sprawl growth. I'd rather take the subway Mon to Fri in NYC, but if the roads are empty, the streets are faster and more comfortable. Unfortunately, public transit is awesome if everyone has to take it, but if enough people opt out, and we give them an option like a personal car and pave roads over where we could have had public space, then cars become optimal for the individual.
- derekp7 8y ago
  I personally like a hybrid approach. I absolutely hate driving in a city, and trying to find (and pay for) parking. So I drive to a park-n-ride that is outside the city, park for a couple bucks, then take light-weight rail into the city. This does require the physical ability to walk quite a bit once you are in the city, however, which a number of people can't do much of due to physical issues (starting to include myself in that category).
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    Park-n-ride has great quality of life but costs a ton because you inevitably wind up paying the cost of driving, parking and public transit.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 8y ago
      Like everything else, it depends. It would cost me approximately $23/day to drive to work accounting for gas + parking, even more if I wanted to pay to use the HOV lane. Instead I drive to a park and ride and take an express bus. The total estimated cost is around $6 including my gas costs.
    - vkou 8y ago
      > Park-n-ride has great quality of life but costs a ton because you inevitably wind up paying the cost of driving, parking and public transit. Somebody pays for the cost of your parking. If you're parking at work, it's your boss. If you're parking on the street, it's taxpayers at large. If you're parking in a park and ride, it's you. Park and rides are generally built in areas where the cost of parking is much lower then it is downtown, so the overall cost of a P&R + bus ticket will often be lower then driving and parking the whole way yourself.
    - Can_Not 8y ago
      Maybe, but my feudal lord offers a discounted bulk public transit pass plus park-n-ride combo.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    I dislike the hybrid approach because that's what makes it impossible to optimize a community for either public transit or private cars. You can't do both at the same time, the resources that would make public transit amazing are being used up by infrastructure for private cars.
  - magicnubs 8y ago
    This hybrid approach still requires purchase and regular operation of an entire personal vehicle, which will not be entirely attenuated by simply driving half as many miles. So if [driving] and [public transit] both cost x, the hybrid solution will definitely cost more than x, up to 2x, which means most people will only do one or the other.
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  I don't think 'not dealing with other people' really applies to driving. You're still dealing with people, but now they're in large machines that can quickly kill you if the other person is on their phone, drunk, angry or just plain bad at driving. Public transit is generally safer and less costly when you start taking into account accidents and injuries resulting from them. There's also the immense value of being freed from having to focus on the road, which gives you the ability to multitask and read, write code etc. I used to do just that back when I rode the bus to and from college.
  - dorgo 8y ago
    "dealing with other people" = ticket inspectors, beggers, crying babies, random conversations 50 cm away from your ear, drunk people... you don't have this in your car.
    - fzeroracer 8y ago
      Beggars exist and will walk up to your car at popular intersections. Drunk people also drive, or else drunk driving wouldn't be an issue and the result of so many other deaths. Don't get me started on people suffering from road rage.
- Steltek 8y ago
  I think you're drastically underestimating the health impact of of driving. Public transit incorporates walking and you can relax on the train, read a book or stream something. Driving usually means stressful traffic, road rage, and overall lost exercise.
  - lotsofpulp 8y ago
    Driving excessive amounts or in high traffic situations is worse than public transit.
    - Steltek 8y ago
      Sorry, I was unclear. Yes, I totally agree: I believe driving is substantially worse for your physical and mental health than transit. In personal terms, I sought a new job where I could take the T or bike to avoid driving as the extreme antisocial behavior of other Boston drivers was taking a serious toll on me.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    I don’t know about you, but my WMATA rage (raging at the fact that the ride is super jerky because they used all their maintenance funds for hookers and cocaine and thus had to turn off automatic train control; raging at sitting stopped because some switch broke down again, etc.) raises my blood as much as toad rage ever did.
    - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
      >hookers and cocaine You misspelled "creating previously non-existent middle manager positions for powerful people to place people in as political favors"
      - rayiner 8y ago
        No, the corruption at WMATA is among the rank and file, who get paid too much and don’t do their jobs. The vast majority of WMATA’s employees are in operations.
- pkulak 8y ago
  > More control of when you leave/arrive, storage space to transport things, not dealing with other people, ability to go wherever you want, air conditioning. But everything you listed there, except people and AC, doesn't apply to commuting, which is the main transportation people in suburbs rely on.
  - rayiner 8y ago
    Sure it does. Want to pick up some beer on the way home from work? Kid had a rough night and you want to sleep in 30 minutes later than usual (taking you out of the AM peak train frequency)? Don’t want to have to walk 10 minutes through the rain (or a 150% humidity DC day) to get to your office? Driving is much better for that.
    - pkulak 8y ago
      Yeah, I guess it depends on the person. I live on a pretty strict schedule, so if my kid has a bad night, we all still have to be up and out at exactly the same time. The closest parking garage is a lot farther than the closest train stop. I've taken small groceries home in my backpack pretty often; there's lots of shopping by my office. The thought of parking at a shopping center after work sounds really unappealing. :D
      - estebank 8y ago
        One thing to notice is that the groceries themselves are different in the us and Europe. Packages have a tendency to be bigger and the shops tend to be further away because the customers will be driving to the shop. It's a self reinforcing cycle.
    - komali2 8y ago
      Interesting, the reasons you listed make a stronger argument for public transit than for cars, for me. 30 minutes sleeping in mean I've just added one hour to my car commute time (we joked that the difference between leaving at 6:30 and 7am is getting to work at 7am and 9am), whereas I just catch the next train and get there exactly at the same time as I would have before... plus 30 minutes. If I want to pick up beer, I just grab some from the liquor store on the way to the train or whatever, and carry it, no big deal. Re: rain, traffic accidents go way up in the rain and everything slows way down on the freeways, but the train doesn't feel it at all and still gets there exactly at the same time. It's got AC on it so I'm not uncomfortable on hot days. Public Transit generally sucks in America so yea, driving is better because the above reasons don't apply when the train comes once every 3 hours, is unreliable, and the AC is broken. But the option does exist to have good public transit, it just needs the funding. Other cities and countries have figured it out, it's possible. So given that good public transit is an option, is better for the environment, is cheaper in real costs, why not seek that out?
- Frondo 8y ago
  The worst consequence of a car-heavy culture, to me, isn't the pollution (or any other externalities we don't normally account for because cars!). It's that a car-heavy culture takes the choice away for everybody for any other transportation. I'm sure driving around Houston is great, but say I don't want to, for whatever reason (I want to drink a lot to celebrate something)...or say I can't, because of a health condition... because of the car culture, I now have no choice. There should be a way to structure cities to return choice to people, instead of giving up 35% of our usable land to streets that force people to move about in personal vehicles; freedom should mean the freedom to choose one's transportation, not just the freedom to own and maintain a vehicle.
- ocschwar 8y ago
  "More control of when you leave/arrive, " I disbelieve. If you don't want to be caught up in nasty traffic, you have to check the reports, and have knowledge of when rush hour gets bad. So you're still on somone else's schedule.
tsss 8y ago
How long is your commute? I highly doubt anyone who has to endure public transport for more than 30 minutes at a time would say that. Not to mention the limits on where you can go and what you can take with you. Of course you don't need a car if your workplace is 20 minutes away and your only hobby is going to the gym across the street. But I'd like to see you practice any more niche hobby that requires transporting equipment.
- aqme28 8y ago
  My subway commute is about 30 minutes and I practice some pretty damn niche hobbies.

by aqme28 8y ago

> Driving everywhere in Houston results in a hell of a lot higher quality of life than riding public transit everywhere in Boston. I'd really like to see how you come to this conclusion.

lotsofpulp 8y ago

More control of when you leave/arrive, storage space to transport things, not dealing with other people, ability to go wherever you want, air conditioning. There are downsides like traffic, car maintenance, and parking, but in general, cars are probably more comfortable than public transit in the US. I'm also ignoring externalities like pollution and unsustainable suburban sprawl growth. I'd rather take the subway Mon to Fri in NYC, but if the roads are empty, the streets are faster and more comfortable. Unfortunately, public transit is awesome if everyone has to take it, but if enough people opt out, and we give them an option like a personal car and pave roads over where we could have had public space, then cars become optimal for the individual.

derekp7 8y ago
I personally like a hybrid approach. I absolutely hate driving in a city, and trying to find (and pay for) parking. So I drive to a park-n-ride that is outside the city, park for a couple bucks, then take light-weight rail into the city. This does require the physical ability to walk quite a bit once you are in the city, however, which a number of people can't do much of due to physical issues (starting to include myself in that category).
- dsfyu404ed 8y ago
  Park-n-ride has great quality of life but costs a ton because you inevitably wind up paying the cost of driving, parking and public transit.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 8y ago
    Like everything else, it depends. It would cost me approximately $23/day to drive to work accounting for gas + parking, even more if I wanted to pay to use the HOV lane. Instead I drive to a park and ride and take an express bus. The total estimated cost is around $6 including my gas costs.
  - vkou 8y ago
    > Park-n-ride has great quality of life but costs a ton because you inevitably wind up paying the cost of driving, parking and public transit. Somebody pays for the cost of your parking. If you're parking at work, it's your boss. If you're parking on the street, it's taxpayers at large. If you're parking in a park and ride, it's you. Park and rides are generally built in areas where the cost of parking is much lower then it is downtown, so the overall cost of a P&R + bus ticket will often be lower then driving and parking the whole way yourself.
  - Can_Not 8y ago
    Maybe, but my feudal lord offers a discounted bulk public transit pass plus park-n-ride combo.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  I dislike the hybrid approach because that's what makes it impossible to optimize a community for either public transit or private cars. You can't do both at the same time, the resources that would make public transit amazing are being used up by infrastructure for private cars.
- magicnubs 8y ago
  This hybrid approach still requires purchase and regular operation of an entire personal vehicle, which will not be entirely attenuated by simply driving half as many miles. So if [driving] and [public transit] both cost x, the hybrid solution will definitely cost more than x, up to 2x, which means most people will only do one or the other.
fzeroracer 8y ago
I don't think 'not dealing with other people' really applies to driving. You're still dealing with people, but now they're in large machines that can quickly kill you if the other person is on their phone, drunk, angry or just plain bad at driving. Public transit is generally safer and less costly when you start taking into account accidents and injuries resulting from them. There's also the immense value of being freed from having to focus on the road, which gives you the ability to multitask and read, write code etc. I used to do just that back when I rode the bus to and from college.
- dorgo 8y ago
  "dealing with other people" = ticket inspectors, beggers, crying babies, random conversations 50 cm away from your ear, drunk people... you don't have this in your car.
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    Beggars exist and will walk up to your car at popular intersections. Drunk people also drive, or else drunk driving wouldn't be an issue and the result of so many other deaths. Don't get me started on people suffering from road rage.
Steltek 8y ago
I think you're drastically underestimating the health impact of of driving. Public transit incorporates walking and you can relax on the train, read a book or stream something. Driving usually means stressful traffic, road rage, and overall lost exercise.
- lotsofpulp 8y ago
  Driving excessive amounts or in high traffic situations is worse than public transit.
  - Steltek 8y ago
    Sorry, I was unclear. Yes, I totally agree: I believe driving is substantially worse for your physical and mental health than transit. In personal terms, I sought a new job where I could take the T or bike to avoid driving as the extreme antisocial behavior of other Boston drivers was taking a serious toll on me.
- rayiner 8y ago
  I don’t know about you, but my WMATA rage (raging at the fact that the ride is super jerky because they used all their maintenance funds for hookers and cocaine and thus had to turn off automatic train control; raging at sitting stopped because some switch broke down again, etc.) raises my blood as much as toad rage ever did.
  - dsfyu404ed 8y ago
    >hookers and cocaine You misspelled "creating previously non-existent middle manager positions for powerful people to place people in as political favors"
    - rayiner 8y ago
      No, the corruption at WMATA is among the rank and file, who get paid too much and don’t do their jobs. The vast majority of WMATA’s employees are in operations.
pkulak 8y ago
> More control of when you leave/arrive, storage space to transport things, not dealing with other people, ability to go wherever you want, air conditioning. But everything you listed there, except people and AC, doesn't apply to commuting, which is the main transportation people in suburbs rely on.
- rayiner 8y ago
  Sure it does. Want to pick up some beer on the way home from work? Kid had a rough night and you want to sleep in 30 minutes later than usual (taking you out of the AM peak train frequency)? Don’t want to have to walk 10 minutes through the rain (or a 150% humidity DC day) to get to your office? Driving is much better for that.
  - pkulak 8y ago
    Yeah, I guess it depends on the person. I live on a pretty strict schedule, so if my kid has a bad night, we all still have to be up and out at exactly the same time. The closest parking garage is a lot farther than the closest train stop. I've taken small groceries home in my backpack pretty often; there's lots of shopping by my office. The thought of parking at a shopping center after work sounds really unappealing. :D
    - estebank 8y ago
      One thing to notice is that the groceries themselves are different in the us and Europe. Packages have a tendency to be bigger and the shops tend to be further away because the customers will be driving to the shop. It's a self reinforcing cycle.
  - komali2 8y ago
    Interesting, the reasons you listed make a stronger argument for public transit than for cars, for me. 30 minutes sleeping in mean I've just added one hour to my car commute time (we joked that the difference between leaving at 6:30 and 7am is getting to work at 7am and 9am), whereas I just catch the next train and get there exactly at the same time as I would have before... plus 30 minutes. If I want to pick up beer, I just grab some from the liquor store on the way to the train or whatever, and carry it, no big deal. Re: rain, traffic accidents go way up in the rain and everything slows way down on the freeways, but the train doesn't feel it at all and still gets there exactly at the same time. It's got AC on it so I'm not uncomfortable on hot days. Public Transit generally sucks in America so yea, driving is better because the above reasons don't apply when the train comes once every 3 hours, is unreliable, and the AC is broken. But the option does exist to have good public transit, it just needs the funding. Other cities and countries have figured it out, it's possible. So given that good public transit is an option, is better for the environment, is cheaper in real costs, why not seek that out?
Frondo 8y ago
The worst consequence of a car-heavy culture, to me, isn't the pollution (or any other externalities we don't normally account for because cars!). It's that a car-heavy culture takes the choice away for everybody for any other transportation. I'm sure driving around Houston is great, but say I don't want to, for whatever reason (I want to drink a lot to celebrate something)...or say I can't, because of a health condition... because of the car culture, I now have no choice. There should be a way to structure cities to return choice to people, instead of giving up 35% of our usable land to streets that force people to move about in personal vehicles; freedom should mean the freedom to choose one's transportation, not just the freedom to own and maintain a vehicle.
ocschwar 8y ago
"More control of when you leave/arrive, " I disbelieve. If you don't want to be caught up in nasty traffic, you have to check the reports, and have knowledge of when rush hour gets bad. So you're still on somone else's schedule.

tsss 8y ago

How long is your commute? I highly doubt anyone who has to endure public transport for more than 30 minutes at a time would say that. Not to mention the limits on where you can go and what you can take with you. Of course you don't need a car if your workplace is 20 minutes away and your only hobby is going to the gym across the street. But I'd like to see you practice any more niche hobby that requires transporting equipment.

aqme28 8y ago
My subway commute is about 30 minutes and I practice some pretty damn niche hobbies.