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After spending time extracting data and text from PDF I would also say it’s the worst file format. We have perfectly fine structured documents, convert them to
by maxxxxx 7y ago
After spending time extracting data and text from PDF I would also say it’s the worst file format. We have perfectly fine structured documents, convert them to PDF to lose half of the information and then we spend insane effort to get the data back somehow.
It also doesn’t render well on different resolutions.
PDF is a perfect case study how inferior solutions can become standards.
- cgtyoder 7y agoIt's important to differentiate between the file format and software that renders that file format. Admittedly there are better and worse PDF viewers, but that shouldn't be the final (or even most important) determiner of how important it is.
- disqard 7y agoYes, I often use SumatraPDF, but there's always those super-complicated Turing-complete documents which use web-based-aunthenticated-signed God-knows-what, that won't open in anything other than Acrobat.
- SigmundA 7y agoPDF is based on Postscript, it designed for print perfect output, its essentially a bunch of rendering commands for a printer its not supposed to be a word processing format that can be edited later its the final output from a word processor or whatever.
- mattnewton 7y agoRight, but somehow it gets used for all sorts of things that are never printed in offices everywhere.
- SigmundA 7y agoIt gets printed to the screen for reading and still retains the text for searching. The ability to easily edit can actually be liability in many situations. Its literally a replacement for paper documents, except you can search and view them on a computer and still hit print and get a great paper reproduction. Word processing/editing has so much more going on, PDF actually removes features from postscript for security purposes, nobody wants to be sending word docs around just for viewing.
- kevin_thibedeau 7y agoRecovering coherent text strings from PDF is non-trivial. Paragraphs are merely implicit and hyphenation must be removed, among many other problems. Anything unusual like sub/superscripts or inline math will potentially end up as gibberish or missing.
- maxxxxx 7y agoI have spent weeks on an algorithm that would recreate words and paragraphs from letter rectangles and the space in between. Fun, fun, fun. Tables are even better. Page headers and footers then complete the insanity nicely.
- SigmundA 7y agoThat has a lot to do with the program that created it, HTML can be bad to search to I mean try and index a react page. It a better situation than OCRing a paper doc though.
- mattnewton 7y agoThe alternative doesn’t have to be a word doc; I’d prefer, open office xml docs, google docs, markdown, and just plain old rich text half the time. The other half of use cases, graphically rich report-like things, HTML or a power point would have been better. I don’t want my content to be constrained to a paper format to be zoomed and scrolled around on a not-paper-sized screen with no support for reflows.
- svnpenn 7y agoPDF isn't and was never meant as a data storage format. It is meant as a presentation format. You write a file in latex or docx then convert to PDF for sharing. This means the recipient only needs a PDF reader, not whatever tools you used to create the file. This is similar to writing a file in C and compiling to an executable. You can distribute the source, but most (outside of programmers) just want the executable so they don't have a to worry about the tooling.
- maxxxxx 7y agoThat’s the problem. It was never meant as what it’s used for now. It’s bad for manuals, it’s bad for data, it’s bad for mobile devices, it’s bad for versioning. It’s only good for printing. But somehow it’s used for all of these.
- disqard 7y agoGood perspective... and it made me think of a parallel with Democracy. Could the atrocity that is pdf be the "least bad" way to do all of the above in one file format?
- maxxxxx 7y agoNo. It’s the worst bad :). It’s only good for printing.
- Spooky23 7y agoFormatting matters in many cases, and PDF respects that better than any other common format. I have policy and legal documents from 2005 in PDF/A that can be rendered identically in 2019, and likely in 2105. That isn't the case for HTML, Word or almost any non-plaintext format. If for no other reason than the US Federal Courts require use of PDF, the format will exist and be somewhat vibrant for many decades to come. I can wholeheartedly will agree that Adobe Reader sucks, but the format solves lots of problems that are difficult to solve otherwise.
- 7y ago
- bluejay2387 7y agoI have to agree. PDF is the biggest pain in the rear I've had to deal with in my development career. I am also not crazy about the fact that such an important standard for storing information is so heavily influenced by one company (though PDF is an open standard at least).
- wyld_one 7y agoI can't really say it's an open standard either since proprietary binary data can be embedded that may not be usable by the 'standard' pdf viewer. Yes, I have had to deal with it on a development slant as well. The open source tools are rare. Paper records are the reason systems went to databases to store information. PDF is NOT the swiss army knife of IT-data and never will be.
- laythea 7y agoI'm not disagreeing with you but that does not take away from its importance. There are lots of crappy important things :)
- maxxxxx 7y agoCan’t argue about that!
- oever 7y agoPDF/A-1a is a form of PDF where the text is embedded in structured way. It is a 'tagged PDF'. This is meant to make PDF files accessible. It makes it possible to extract the text well. Some governments, e.g. Dutch government, mandate that PDFs be tagged PDFs.
- ryandvm 7y agoAgreed. PDF is intended to accurately render a specific presentation format - often desktop. There is nothing quite like the melange of frustration you get when you are trying to fix something and realizing you have to open up a PDF product manual on your phone. Dragging and zooming all over the place like it's Google fucking Maps. Bonus points when the text isn't even searchable.
- smacktoward 7y ago"Most important" and "best" are descriptors that rarely apply to the same product. The most important beer in America is probably Bud Light.
- type0 7y agoPDF, What is it FOR? Here's computerphile video that explains it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48tFB_sjHgY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48tFB_sjHgY
- jimjimjim 7y agoI loved it when pdf started gaining traction. back then there was only 1 format in the world .doc PDF became standard because it was a SUPERIOR solution for the use cases that most people wanted.
- _emacsomancer_ 7y agoI think .doc(x) is clearly the worst file format - they're not as portable as people seem to think they are, and they're not long-lasting. PDF, for all of its failing, doesn't suffer from these issues. A better solution, perhaps, for preserving structure, would be TeX, markdown or Org files, but PDF has the advantage of not having to be compiled and being ready for presentation/consumption (possessing platform invariance).