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> Wow, you're assuming that the neuro-diverse can mimic these signals so much better than sociopaths Given how little we know about the inner mental states of

> Wow, you're assuming that the neuro-diverse can mimic these signals so much better than sociopaths Given how little we know about the inner mental states of sociopaths (as opposed to their outward behavior), I don't think we can simply assume that they're closer to the neurotypical ideal than autistics. (There's even some speculation that they may essentially be "emotional Reptilians", with an emotional palette that's essentially restricted to relatively basic drives - and that their consistent manipulation of others is in fact driven by the resource-acquisition drive.) There may even be multiple dimensions of viable empathy-signals; one kind may be especially cheap for neurotypicals, whilst a different kind may be cheap for the autistic.

Nomentatus 7y ago
I don't think we're disagreeing much about the background. But as for results: I've known both - the sociopaths were much better in my experience. More repetitive, granted, but with far fewer obvious misfires and much less strain.
- 0815test 7y ago
  I mean, the repetitiveness itself should be kind of a tell-tale sign, shouldn't it? And for that matter, I'm not even convinced that sociopaths have that highly-developed of a TOM (Theory Of Mind) either. Their manipulations seem to be skin-deep, and they have deeper problems with succeeding in negotiation and letting go of entitlement attitudes, even when they would stand to gain significantly from doing so - that are hard to explain other than via a defective TOM. (It might even be possible to explore these things via formal research, such as by enticing/incenting sociopathic subjects to play properly-specified games/puzzles that require them to manipulate someone in just the right (and increasingly complex) ways, and looking at their outcomes.)
  - Nomentatus 7y ago
    Interesting followup. Re repetition - it's a sign but only after a couple months do you notice that all these pleasing utterances you keep hearing are expressed with one of the same three emotional notes. Sociopaths have no real theory of mind, I agree, just a lot of stimulus-response mimicked behavior, lifted from those who do have a theory of mind. Negotiation is a very interesting topic in this regard. I like your research program proposal. I've noticed a lot more pleading or demanding than trading from sociopaths; good trading/negotiation pretty much requires a theory of the other's mind, needs, etc.
    - 0815test 7y ago
      > Sociopaths have no real theory of mind, I agree, just a lot of stimulus-response mimicked behavior I mean, it might be that they do have a core TOM in addition to the stimulus-response stuff - but one that fails, because by default they're generalizing their own mental states/emotional ranges to others, not the neurotypical's or for that matter the autistic's. (Thus, even their TOM defects would be - at least to some extent - a consequence of them lacking certain drives. Including, of course, the uniquely-human drive to "truck, barter and trade" that makes people willing to engage constructively with others, even when pursuing entirely-selfish goals.)

Nomentatus 7y ago

I don't think we're disagreeing much about the background. But as for results: I've known both - the sociopaths were much better in my experience. More repetitive, granted, but with far fewer obvious misfires and much less strain.

0815test 7y ago
I mean, the repetitiveness itself should be kind of a tell-tale sign, shouldn't it? And for that matter, I'm not even convinced that sociopaths have that highly-developed of a TOM (Theory Of Mind) either. Their manipulations seem to be skin-deep, and they have deeper problems with succeeding in negotiation and letting go of entitlement attitudes, even when they would stand to gain significantly from doing so - that are hard to explain other than via a defective TOM. (It might even be possible to explore these things via formal research, such as by enticing/incenting sociopathic subjects to play properly-specified games/puzzles that require them to manipulate someone in just the right (and increasingly complex) ways, and looking at their outcomes.)
- Nomentatus 7y ago
  Interesting followup. Re repetition - it's a sign but only after a couple months do you notice that all these pleasing utterances you keep hearing are expressed with one of the same three emotional notes. Sociopaths have no real theory of mind, I agree, just a lot of stimulus-response mimicked behavior, lifted from those who do have a theory of mind. Negotiation is a very interesting topic in this regard. I like your research program proposal. I've noticed a lot more pleading or demanding than trading from sociopaths; good trading/negotiation pretty much requires a theory of the other's mind, needs, etc.
  - 0815test 7y ago
    > Sociopaths have no real theory of mind, I agree, just a lot of stimulus-response mimicked behavior I mean, it might be that they do have a core TOM in addition to the stimulus-response stuff - but one that fails, because by default they're generalizing their own mental states/emotional ranges to others, not the neurotypical's or for that matter the autistic's. (Thus, even their TOM defects would be - at least to some extent - a consequence of them lacking certain drives. Including, of course, the uniquely-human drive to "truck, barter and trade" that makes people willing to engage constructively with others, even when pursuing entirely-selfish goals.)