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My wife is a doctor of Physical Therapy, and I've learned incredible amounts about the human body. Not, how to get stronger faster, but more specifically which

My wife is a doctor of Physical Therapy, and I've learned incredible amounts about the human body. Not, how to get stronger faster, but more specifically which biological processes is the body capable of? When I read people who suggest yoga , massage, chiro, weird exercises, etc... I just wonder- Why? There is enough information on the internet to learn there are only a few ways to change muscles. Massage, manipulations, and stretching have their own merit, but without (hypertrophy) strengthening, is temporary. Strengthening is one of the few things that is lasting. I genuinely feel bad for people who think yoga is going to make their sitting back pain go away. The yoga infulencers and chiros will tell you whatever you want to hear. Edit: lots of confusion about yoga and Physical therapy. A physical therapist doesn't teach you a workout. They use each tool to solve a body problem. Yoga is general exercise and stretching. Yoga might make you stronger, but it's not likely they are targeting the weak muscles directly, but rather giving you a workout routine.

ahelwer 7y ago
Yoga makes you strong as hell, though? Have you ever done yoga or do you think it's just stretching? It's basically a set of advanced bodyweight exercises.
- TheCapn 7y ago
  Having done both Yoga and Strength training myself they're not the same. If anything, they're complementary in the same way that cardiovascular training complements strength training. There's lots of ways to be fit, I just think OP is trying to say you can't put all your eggs in one bucket and expect all the benefits to come to you.
  - astazangasta 7y ago
    On the contrary OP is saying only strength training matters. This is horseshit. In Eastern traditions people who lack flexibility are considered weak and unhealthy no matter how strong their muscles are. If you can't bend you can't move.
    - throwayEngineer 7y ago
      No. That's not at all what the post said. I even said stretching, manipulations, and massage have their own merits. These are all used to change the body, but strengthening is the long term change. Best practice is to do stretching, manipulations, massage before the strengthening. But these are my Engineering summary, you can get treatment from a doctor of Physical Therapy that does this as a job.
- throwayEngineer 7y ago
  Just to clarify, yoga in this context refers to ONLY the stretching. If your instructor is having you do low rep, weighted exercises, it does hypertrophy and would improve that muscle. Yoga is a generic term.
  - ahelwer 7y ago
    There are ways to become strong other than the 3x5 Starting Strength program. Why even use the term yoga if you meant stretching? I guarantee you any Starting Strength hero who walks into a halfway decent vinyasa class will get wrecked.
    - throwayEngineer 7y ago
      Physical therapy is not lifting weights. Read the context
      - ahelwer 7y ago
        Become better at communicating so people don't have to "read the context" and infer meaning in your words that exists only in your head.
        throwayEngineer 7y ago
        That is the point of context
  - mikestew 7y ago
    yoga in this context refers to ONLY the stretching. Then you should have just said "stretching". Yoga is a generic term. So is "strength training", but it's not so generic that I get to just make shit up.
    - throwayEngineer 7y ago
      No strength training is specifically hypertrophy where your body creates new cells. You are more like doing endurance training which make cells for ADP/ATP. And you likely aren't doing it like a perscription where they target the weaknesses. Rather general. In the context of the original post, it is clear why I mentioned yoga in that list.
- albertgoeswoof 7y ago
  There's yoga and then there's yoga
- decebalus1 7y ago
  Not a fan of yoga but this is one of the reasons for confusion. As I understand it, there are several types of yoga, some are as you said, bodyweight exercises and some are basically adult nappy time. Not at all familiar with the terminology but when I used to do weightlifting, I had a minor injury and it was recommended I attend a yoga class. It did not help and I really don't believe it makes you stronger. I mean, probably if that's the only type of exercise, it will clearly beat running or whatnot wrt to strength.
  - ahelwer 7y ago
    Yeah, the adult nappy time one is usually called restorative. Things like vinyasa or hatha are pretty intense, though.
Raphmedia 7y ago
Anecdotal but doing yoga only two years increased my flexibility up to the point that I can put my feet behind my head without any issue. It resolved most of my pains that comes from sitting at a desk all day. There's also a lot of power yoga poses where you do the equivalent of weightless exercises.
tootie 7y ago
Whenever I see a Pilates studio that promises longer, leaner muscles I get seriously angry.
astazangasta 7y ago
There are many ways to change muscle. One key insight you seem to be missing is the value of flexibility. Yes, this value is temporary and requires maintenance. That doesnt mean it is not valuable.
- ehnto 7y ago
  In strength training, flexibility is very important. It is often the root of poor form that leads to weaker lifts. The first thing a good strength coach will do is figure out your current range of motion and address how that's affecting your major lifts. Moreso, poor flexibility can lead to injury and long term imbalances if you don't get them sorted before making big gains in strength. Like building on a lopsided foundation.
sebringj 7y ago
I thought the same but you have to stay in a pose balancing yourself and I was amazed how hard it was and how much sweat came out of me. It seems to actually strengthen places you didn't know existed in other words.
- ehnto 7y ago
  I think people are conflating two different magnitudes of strength improvement. You will be getting a stronger more robust body from Yoga, absolutely, but you won't see any significant increases in your ability to lift weights in the context of a weight lifting program, which is fine if that isn't your goal. The improvements you expext from a weight training program are going from lifting 40kg off the floor to 140kg+ off the floor. So a strength trainer will disagree that Yoga helps because of course the magnitude of gain is just not in the same ballpark as a strength training program expects. You would be better off sticking to good fundamental strength training if that was your goal.
  - sebringj 7y ago
    Yes, I have never seen anyone taking a yoga class that has very large muscles, always lean and lengthy, typically how I hear women wanting to look and also hearing they don't want to look bulky so that would be more inline with what you are reporting but I say this knowing I have no business stating women's opinions, just what I heard.
superhuzza 7y ago
One-sided 95% lower confidence limits were 0.83 (RMDQ) and 0.97 (pain), demonstrating noninferiority of yoga to PT. However, yoga was not superior to education for either outcome. Yoga and PT were similar for most secondary outcomes. Yoga and PT participants were 21 and 22 percentage points less likely, respectively, than education participants to use pain medication at 12 weeks. Improvements in yoga and PT groups were maintained at 1 year with no differences between maintenance strategies. https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2633222/yoga-physical-therapy-education-chronic-low-back-pain-randomized-noninferiority https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2633222/yoga-physica...
- throwayEngineer 7y ago
  That study is for non specific pain.
devnullbyte 7y ago
I have no idea which yoga you tried, but yoga is very strengthening to the core muscle groups when performed correctly.
lm28469 7y ago
Yoga is pretty much meditation + stretching + balance exercises. It sure is overhyped if you only know it through ""influencers"" but if you dig a bit it's quite good + you don't need to go to fancy yoga studios, just use a foam pad and youtube. Have you ever noticed all these buff dudes at the gym who look like goblins ? Well, that's because they don't stretch and focus on pecs / shoulders / arms, combine that with an office job and you'll do more harm than good
Eric_WVGG 7y ago
I’m building a website for my physical therapist, and just yesterday had an interview where I asked for anecdotes and case studies about his career, etc. When I asked what the most common thing people came to him with, he immediately said, "Yoga. I started out in a clinic down in the West Village across the street from a yoga studio, most of my clients were men who hurt their backs or their necks doing yoga positions."
- AJ007 7y ago
  I think there is more than anecdotal evidence to support this - https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/how-yoga-can-wreck-your-body.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/how-yoga-can-wre...
varelse 7y ago
Another thing that in my experience was close to magic was immersing sore limbs in ice baths. I had a near career-ending bout of RSI a decade ago. Physical therapy and fancy peripherals were unhelpful. But a couple months of nightly 10 minute soaks of my arms in buckets of ice water is the closest I've ever come to a miracle cure. Sadly, it didn't seem to work for anyone else who tired it. I think what it did was to reset my hypersensitive pain threshold back to normal, but I don't have any science to back that up. It was intensely uncomfortable (bringing me close to tears after a couple minutes) at first but then I adjusted to it.
xzel 7y ago
I agree and disagree with you. Agree 100% on the strengthening. What is often lost in the Instagram posts is you need a plan to attack things like sitting back pain that come at it from different angles such as Yoga, PT, Pilates, cardio and/or strength training. That was more of list of possibilities but you should work with someone that has experience in the field build something that fits your needs. When I first came out of college, I had incredible knee pain when sitting for longer period. I couldn't go to class without taking motrin or something stronger depending on the day. I worked out, played sports etc, was very active, and felt no pain when doing those activities but something in my body was out of whack/alignment. I saw a few specialists, did an MRI and they couldn't find an obvious cause. My only option that route was getting cut open and maybe finding something that wasn't being picked up (which knee surgery is a miserable recovery). I started doing PT where I was told my hamstrings were like old rubberbands. So I started stretching but it wasn't progressing. I ended up seeing a rolfing masseuse once a month. Things progressed slowly. I got to a point where seeing a trainer was a good option. Eventually the kneed pain vanished but was in my back. More work and direction and the pain was gone. It took two+ years of dedication but it was worth every penny. I'm sharing this because I understand how desperate people can feel with pain management and how confusing everything can be. My point is plenty of the information is total bullshit, but if you put the energy and money in, you can find the right team and try a few different things, you can get better. I would have never believe in the actual effects of rolfing if I never tried it. You don't have to live with the pain, try to keep working and don't ever give up on it.

ahelwer 7y ago

Yoga makes you strong as hell, though? Have you ever done yoga or do you think it's just stretching? It's basically a set of advanced bodyweight exercises.

TheCapn 7y ago
Having done both Yoga and Strength training myself they're not the same. If anything, they're complementary in the same way that cardiovascular training complements strength training. There's lots of ways to be fit, I just think OP is trying to say you can't put all your eggs in one bucket and expect all the benefits to come to you.
- astazangasta 7y ago
  On the contrary OP is saying only strength training matters. This is horseshit. In Eastern traditions people who lack flexibility are considered weak and unhealthy no matter how strong their muscles are. If you can't bend you can't move.
  - throwayEngineer 7y ago
    No. That's not at all what the post said. I even said stretching, manipulations, and massage have their own merits. These are all used to change the body, but strengthening is the long term change. Best practice is to do stretching, manipulations, massage before the strengthening. But these are my Engineering summary, you can get treatment from a doctor of Physical Therapy that does this as a job.
throwayEngineer 7y ago
Just to clarify, yoga in this context refers to ONLY the stretching. If your instructor is having you do low rep, weighted exercises, it does hypertrophy and would improve that muscle. Yoga is a generic term.
- ahelwer 7y ago
  There are ways to become strong other than the 3x5 Starting Strength program. Why even use the term yoga if you meant stretching? I guarantee you any Starting Strength hero who walks into a halfway decent vinyasa class will get wrecked.
  - throwayEngineer 7y ago
    Physical therapy is not lifting weights. Read the context
    - ahelwer 7y ago
      Become better at communicating so people don't have to "read the context" and infer meaning in your words that exists only in your head.
      - throwayEngineer 7y ago
        That is the point of context
- mikestew 7y ago
  yoga in this context refers to ONLY the stretching. Then you should have just said "stretching". Yoga is a generic term. So is "strength training", but it's not so generic that I get to just make shit up.
  - throwayEngineer 7y ago
    No strength training is specifically hypertrophy where your body creates new cells. You are more like doing endurance training which make cells for ADP/ATP. And you likely aren't doing it like a perscription where they target the weaknesses. Rather general. In the context of the original post, it is clear why I mentioned yoga in that list.
albertgoeswoof 7y ago
There's yoga and then there's yoga
decebalus1 7y ago
Not a fan of yoga but this is one of the reasons for confusion. As I understand it, there are several types of yoga, some are as you said, bodyweight exercises and some are basically adult nappy time. Not at all familiar with the terminology but when I used to do weightlifting, I had a minor injury and it was recommended I attend a yoga class. It did not help and I really don't believe it makes you stronger. I mean, probably if that's the only type of exercise, it will clearly beat running or whatnot wrt to strength.
- ahelwer 7y ago
  Yeah, the adult nappy time one is usually called restorative. Things like vinyasa or hatha are pretty intense, though.

Raphmedia 7y ago

Anecdotal but doing yoga only two years increased my flexibility up to the point that I can put my feet behind my head without any issue. It resolved most of my pains that comes from sitting at a desk all day. There's also a lot of power yoga poses where you do the equivalent of weightless exercises.

tootie 7y ago

Whenever I see a Pilates studio that promises longer, leaner muscles I get seriously angry.

astazangasta 7y ago

There are many ways to change muscle. One key insight you seem to be missing is the value of flexibility. Yes, this value is temporary and requires maintenance. That doesnt mean it is not valuable.

ehnto 7y ago
In strength training, flexibility is very important. It is often the root of poor form that leads to weaker lifts. The first thing a good strength coach will do is figure out your current range of motion and address how that's affecting your major lifts. Moreso, poor flexibility can lead to injury and long term imbalances if you don't get them sorted before making big gains in strength. Like building on a lopsided foundation.

sebringj 7y ago

I thought the same but you have to stay in a pose balancing yourself and I was amazed how hard it was and how much sweat came out of me. It seems to actually strengthen places you didn't know existed in other words.

ehnto 7y ago
I think people are conflating two different magnitudes of strength improvement. You will be getting a stronger more robust body from Yoga, absolutely, but you won't see any significant increases in your ability to lift weights in the context of a weight lifting program, which is fine if that isn't your goal. The improvements you expext from a weight training program are going from lifting 40kg off the floor to 140kg+ off the floor. So a strength trainer will disagree that Yoga helps because of course the magnitude of gain is just not in the same ballpark as a strength training program expects. You would be better off sticking to good fundamental strength training if that was your goal.
- sebringj 7y ago
  Yes, I have never seen anyone taking a yoga class that has very large muscles, always lean and lengthy, typically how I hear women wanting to look and also hearing they don't want to look bulky so that would be more inline with what you are reporting but I say this knowing I have no business stating women's opinions, just what I heard.

superhuzza 7y ago

One-sided 95% lower confidence limits were 0.83 (RMDQ) and 0.97 (pain), demonstrating noninferiority of yoga to PT. However, yoga was not superior to education for either outcome. Yoga and PT were similar for most secondary outcomes. Yoga and PT participants were 21 and 22 percentage points less likely, respectively, than education participants to use pain medication at 12 weeks. Improvements in yoga and PT groups were maintained at 1 year with no differences between maintenance strategies. https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2633222/yoga-physical-therapy-education-chronic-low-back-pain-randomized-noninferiority https://annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2633222/yoga-physica...

throwayEngineer 7y ago
That study is for non specific pain.

devnullbyte 7y ago

I have no idea which yoga you tried, but yoga is very strengthening to the core muscle groups when performed correctly.

lm28469 7y ago

Yoga is pretty much meditation + stretching + balance exercises. It sure is overhyped if you only know it through ""influencers"" but if you dig a bit it's quite good + you don't need to go to fancy yoga studios, just use a foam pad and youtube. Have you ever noticed all these buff dudes at the gym who look like goblins ? Well, that's because they don't stretch and focus on pecs / shoulders / arms, combine that with an office job and you'll do more harm than good

Eric_WVGG 7y ago

I’m building a website for my physical therapist, and just yesterday had an interview where I asked for anecdotes and case studies about his career, etc. When I asked what the most common thing people came to him with, he immediately said, "Yoga. I started out in a clinic down in the West Village across the street from a yoga studio, most of my clients were men who hurt their backs or their necks doing yoga positions."

AJ007 7y ago
I think there is more than anecdotal evidence to support this - https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/how-yoga-can-wreck-your-body.html https://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/08/magazine/how-yoga-can-wre...

varelse 7y ago

Another thing that in my experience was close to magic was immersing sore limbs in ice baths. I had a near career-ending bout of RSI a decade ago. Physical therapy and fancy peripherals were unhelpful. But a couple months of nightly 10 minute soaks of my arms in buckets of ice water is the closest I've ever come to a miracle cure. Sadly, it didn't seem to work for anyone else who tired it. I think what it did was to reset my hypersensitive pain threshold back to normal, but I don't have any science to back that up. It was intensely uncomfortable (bringing me close to tears after a couple minutes) at first but then I adjusted to it.

xzel 7y ago

I agree and disagree with you. Agree 100% on the strengthening. What is often lost in the Instagram posts is you need a plan to attack things like sitting back pain that come at it from different angles such as Yoga, PT, Pilates, cardio and/or strength training. That was more of list of possibilities but you should work with someone that has experience in the field build something that fits your needs. When I first came out of college, I had incredible knee pain when sitting for longer period. I couldn't go to class without taking motrin or something stronger depending on the day. I worked out, played sports etc, was very active, and felt no pain when doing those activities but something in my body was out of whack/alignment. I saw a few specialists, did an MRI and they couldn't find an obvious cause. My only option that route was getting cut open and maybe finding something that wasn't being picked up (which knee surgery is a miserable recovery). I started doing PT where I was told my hamstrings were like old rubberbands. So I started stretching but it wasn't progressing. I ended up seeing a rolfing masseuse once a month. Things progressed slowly. I got to a point where seeing a trainer was a good option. Eventually the kneed pain vanished but was in my back. More work and direction and the pain was gone. It took two+ years of dedication but it was worth every penny. I'm sharing this because I understand how desperate people can feel with pain management and how confusing everything can be. My point is plenty of the information is total bullshit, but if you put the energy and money in, you can find the right team and try a few different things, you can get better. I would have never believe in the actual effects of rolfing if I never tried it. You don't have to live with the pain, try to keep working and don't ever give up on it.