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This is interesting. You are basically saying that free will is the same as non-determinism. I don't think that's the case. For me, non-determinism is just rand

This is interesting. You are basically saying that free will is the same as non-determinism. I don't think that's the case. For me, non-determinism is just randomness (quantum for example), and doesn't imply free will. Can you just say 'your actions are random, therefore you have free will '? First, 'free will' in the physics sense doesn't really exist. Everything is particles, and particles don't have 'will'. Your body is constituted of particles that follow their own path and interact. This can be deterministic or not, it doesn't matter. Then, you can believe that there is something that we cannot see that can be called 'free will', like a soul, but this is a religious belief. But we can look at free will in the philosophical sense. People have a conscience, they are conscious of themselves, and of their own free will. Also, your actions are only a product of your own inputs (your senses) and your outputs. I believe those are better arguments for defining free will. As free will doesn't exist in physics, we have to give it a definition. And I think this is true whether the universe is deterministic or non deterministic.

Retra 7y ago
On top of that, you can easily emulate non-determinism in deterministic systems and vice versa. So why would it even matter?
- winter_blue 7y ago
  It’s impossible to have actual non-determinism in a deterministic system. Non-determinism is emulated in software using random number generators. If you know the seed (the ‘x’) and the definition of the random function (the ‘f’), you can predict all outputs, analogous to my f(..(x)..) universe above. There’s no programmatic random number generator that is truly random. (I mean random in the sense that it’s entirely unpredictable; not in the sense that the distribution of the random number generator covers all possibilities uniformly over many calls.) Hardware random number generators are truly random (like the RDRAND instruction in x86 CPUs which is seeded by an on-chip entropy source). But if you’re relying on physical entropy, it’s not a deterministic system anymore. You simply can’t emulate non-determinism in a deterministic system.
  - Retra 7y ago
    Why do you say 'actual'? I can emulate a chemical reaction in a computer, but that does not mean I have produced an 'actual' chemical reaction.
- dtech 7y ago
  How can you create non-determinism in a deterministic system without a source of randomness/non-determinism?
  - Retra 7y ago
    You compute every possibility in parallel, and defer the selection of the 'true' result to some time-at-infinity. Once you've done this, realize that there's no difference within this system between selecting the 'true' result at random or using an algorithm, because the system would consider this result selection to be equally arbitrary in either case. (I.e., there's no way to prove that you've selected a specific result non-deterministically.) A deterministic system emulates a non-deterministic one using (computational or data-) parallelism, and a non-deterministic system emulates a deterministic one using (temporal or spacial) aggregation. We typically use random numbers to model non-determinism because it is computationally infeasable to track every possibility, but that is not the only way to do it, and nature doesn't appear to have this problem.
    - winter_blue 7y ago
      > there's no difference within this system between selecting the 'true' result at random or using an algorithm, because the system would consider this result selection to be equally arbitrary This makes zero sense. Choices matter. Selecting one path could potentially result in the suffering of billions of people, and another path could result in the joy of the same billions. > We typically use random numbers to model non-determinism because it is computationally infeasable to track every possibility First, tracking every possibility has absolutely nothing to do with random selection. I don't know how you're mixing these two. We use pseudorandom number generators precisely because it is impossible to have true randomness within a deterministic system. > You compute every possibility in parallel I think you're alluding to some sort of multiverse theory -- and implying that since every possibility exists in parallel, choices are meaningless and nothing matters. Except, we don't live in a multiverse -- a gobbledygook theory if ever there was one. Choices matter.
      - Retra 7y ago
winter_blue 7y ago
> You are basically saying that free will is the same as non-determinism. No, I'm saying that determinism precludes free will. Free will is more than mere non-determinism / randomness. I believe that people have souls, and they have free will. I reject the notion that we are all a bunch of soulless machines. I can't offer you a physics theorem that proves the existence of free will and souls, but to me, it is experientially self-evident.
- elcomet 7y ago
  > No, I'm saying that determinism precludes free will. > Free will is more than mere non-determinism / randomness. Yes, I even think that free will is not really related to the determinism / non-determinism of the universe, as I said earlier. Free will doesn't make sense in physics. That's why I don't agree that determinism precludes free will. You can define free will in an other way, that is compatible with determinism. That's my point of view, you can read more about it : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism. Your view is called 'Incompatibilism', ie determinism and free will are mutually incompatible. At the end, I think that most of it is a question of definition, but we can all agree that free will in a deterministic world is not the same as free will in a world where people have souls.

Retra 7y ago

On top of that, you can easily emulate non-determinism in deterministic systems and vice versa. So why would it even matter?

winter_blue 7y ago
It’s impossible to have actual non-determinism in a deterministic system. Non-determinism is emulated in software using random number generators. If you know the seed (the ‘x’) and the definition of the random function (the ‘f’), you can predict all outputs, analogous to my f(..(x)..) universe above. There’s no programmatic random number generator that is truly random. (I mean random in the sense that it’s entirely unpredictable; not in the sense that the distribution of the random number generator covers all possibilities uniformly over many calls.) Hardware random number generators are truly random (like the RDRAND instruction in x86 CPUs which is seeded by an on-chip entropy source). But if you’re relying on physical entropy, it’s not a deterministic system anymore. You simply can’t emulate non-determinism in a deterministic system.
- Retra 7y ago
  Why do you say 'actual'? I can emulate a chemical reaction in a computer, but that does not mean I have produced an 'actual' chemical reaction.
dtech 7y ago
How can you create non-determinism in a deterministic system without a source of randomness/non-determinism?
- Retra 7y ago
  You compute every possibility in parallel, and defer the selection of the 'true' result to some time-at-infinity. Once you've done this, realize that there's no difference within this system between selecting the 'true' result at random or using an algorithm, because the system would consider this result selection to be equally arbitrary in either case. (I.e., there's no way to prove that you've selected a specific result non-deterministically.) A deterministic system emulates a non-deterministic one using (computational or data-) parallelism, and a non-deterministic system emulates a deterministic one using (temporal or spacial) aggregation. We typically use random numbers to model non-determinism because it is computationally infeasable to track every possibility, but that is not the only way to do it, and nature doesn't appear to have this problem.
  - winter_blue 7y ago
    > there's no difference within this system between selecting the 'true' result at random or using an algorithm, because the system would consider this result selection to be equally arbitrary This makes zero sense. Choices matter. Selecting one path could potentially result in the suffering of billions of people, and another path could result in the joy of the same billions. > We typically use random numbers to model non-determinism because it is computationally infeasable to track every possibility First, tracking every possibility has absolutely nothing to do with random selection. I don't know how you're mixing these two. We use pseudorandom number generators precisely because it is impossible to have true randomness within a deterministic system. > You compute every possibility in parallel I think you're alluding to some sort of multiverse theory -- and implying that since every possibility exists in parallel, choices are meaningless and nothing matters. Except, we don't live in a multiverse -- a gobbledygook theory if ever there was one. Choices matter.
    - Retra 7y ago

winter_blue 7y ago

> You are basically saying that free will is the same as non-determinism. No, I'm saying that determinism precludes free will. Free will is more than mere non-determinism / randomness. I believe that people have souls, and they have free will. I reject the notion that we are all a bunch of soulless machines. I can't offer you a physics theorem that proves the existence of free will and souls, but to me, it is experientially self-evident.

elcomet 7y ago
> No, I'm saying that determinism precludes free will. > Free will is more than mere non-determinism / randomness. Yes, I even think that free will is not really related to the determinism / non-determinism of the universe, as I said earlier. Free will doesn't make sense in physics. That's why I don't agree that determinism precludes free will. You can define free will in an other way, that is compatible with determinism. That's my point of view, you can read more about it : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism. Your view is called 'Incompatibilism', ie determinism and free will are mutually incompatible. At the end, I think that most of it is a question of definition, but we can all agree that free will in a deterministic world is not the same as free will in a world where people have souls.